question of people paying a, what betsy called a penalty. the problem actually with obamacare, the affordable care act, is the fine if you will call it for not participating, was too low. and if we, if we, and that, that basically put, that allowed young people, healthy people to opt out of the plan. what we need to do and i think there are some things that need to be fixed in the arch ca. we need to set the penalty at the lowest premium so people do essentially opt in. when you have participation -- >> sounds like jonathan wants -- >> let me finish. when you have participation, this is just a reality economics, not betsy's alternative facts. when you have participation in a health plan, that's what pushes costs down. >> betsy? >> yes. let me point out that obamacare did something very unfair. it forced young, healthy people to pay the same premium as chronically ill people. but chronically ill people use