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Pardon for them. there's no other reason. there's no other explanation beyond the two points for me. >> that sounds like mob loyalty, to be honest with you. at the end of the day, if donald trump pardons manafort, that doesn't have anything to do with the state of new york. the crimes were committed in the state of new york. some of the weird news stuff, the handing over of campaign data at the cigar bar inside of jared kushner's 666 fifth avenue. it sounds very mafia-like. your book, one of the reasons we wanted to have you on, your book is like a mob that surrounds donald trump. is that what...

Philosophical now, because it doesn't pay to be mean to this guy. this man who knows all your business, all your children's business. it's not a good look. again, we don't know, when you're in that role, we don't know how much you know. we don't know whether or not you were really involved, so it's hard to know what he might really have on trump. but certainly trump's treatment of him has inspired cohen to tell whatever he knows. >> it's like a mob loyalty. donald trump, this is a guy who lost everything, who is facing personal bankruptcy, lost his business, lost his ability to travel, he can ...