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Are perfect democracies and i wouldn't say the united states is a perfect democracy either. so, just saying, i don't think the test is quite that. i think the problem is, as elizabeth said, and i said, that there is war going on, disputed boundaries and the goal is to get to a win for ukraine against russia and then obviously have ukraine become part of a 33-member alliance to block russian aggression ever again. >> peter, any other thoughts on that before i move on? >> no, no, i wouldn't disagree with any of that. i think that's right. there is going to be a test for ukraine in the next year ...

A war. right now we're in a war. the question is what would that kind of messaging have on putin's decisions or pathways toward an end to this current war. and i think there would be a big obstacle. the chicago council on global affairs this week is going to be releasing new survey data we did with the last remaining independent polling organization in russia and seven in ten russians according to this survey have said that preventing ukraine from joining nato is a top justification, a top benefit of russia's current war with ukraine, and that -- and that ukraine's membership in nato would be ...

Meantime. if you balance that, the nato allies should be considering how it will impact that outcome and putin's willingness to end the war. >> peter, beyond article five and this ongoing war and the thought being you can't allow ukraine into the war, because we're all at war, is it clear what else ukraine may need to prove to be allowed into the nato alliance? >> look, it is important you heard president biden talk about democracy as well as security because in fact ukraine is not a perfect moxie and doesn't have a long track record of european style democracy. it has been a pretty tumultuous...

Membership can't happen, but they made real progress and the alliance will lay out the further reforms, both in terms of their security work and their democracy that are necessary to keep moving down that path. >> elizabeth, how do you weigh nato's clear desire to protect ukraine but also try not to antagonize putin to the point where he may do something extreme? >> well, that seems to be what is the debate is focusing on a lot. the point we're missing is whether it is in ukraine's and nato's best interest, irregardless of the response by russia, for us to ukraine on a specific and clear path ...

It is at war with russia. the whole point of article five is that countries who are at war deserve common defense and the effort these -- this past 16 months has been to avoid a war, extended war with russia. >> you're right, that is a big topic of conversation that i want to ask elizabeth about here. and as we do, i want to show again that map because it is stark to see how many countries are in green in this region that are all members of the nato alliance right now. and you can see there is just a couple of blue areas that have applied for membership or want to apply for membership, includi...