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Other themes we've heard as you said. at one point he talks about trying to go to a meeting and he gets there and he's supposed to go in and take notes, and he's told he can't go in because sondland and yermak don't want a note-taker, they only want the two of them in there. how does that fit with the rest of the picture with what we've gotten about what bill taylor called the irregular channel of policy? >> the actual official channel of the state department had no idea what was happening in the irregular channel. bill taylor was kind of the connection between the two, but obviously he wasn't...

Kershner, and ambassador wendy sherman, former under secretary of state for political affairs. she's an msnbc global affairs contributor. and ambassador sherman, i want to get your reaction to this new testimony that we're learning of tonight from david holmes. this is a high ranking staff member in the embassy in ukraine who's a note taker. he's been in countless meetings with the president of ukraine and the previous president of ukraine. this is detailed man as it were, and this is a clear and precise account of the gordon sondland phone call. your reaction to that. >> indeed. david holmes ...

That around. launching an investigation, and going on cnn and announcing this, it basically creates a narrative line. and by the way, the trump campaign announced it was spending millions of dollars on an ad campaign specifically on this subject. there is nothing subtle about this. it's happening in plain sight. and it there was any doubt about it, the fact they announced this multi-million dollar campaign gives you an indication of what he was hoping to do and how he was hoping to frame this into 202 2020. >> according to holmes testimony he was supposed to come with a meeting to an aide with...

She's an msnbc global affairs contributor. and ambassador sherman, i want to get your reaction to this new testimony that we're learning of tonight from david holmes. this is a high ranking staff member in the embassy in ukraine who's a note taker. he's been in countless meetings with the president of ukraine and the previous president of ukraine. this is detailed man as it were, and this is a clear and precise account of the gordon sondland phone call. your reaction to that. >> indeed. david holmes was the political counselor. that means he was in charge of the political section. he was the a...

Other themes as you said. at one point he talks about trying to go to a meeting and he gets there and he's supposed to take notes, and he's told he can't go in because sondland and yermac don't want a note taker, they only want the two of them in there. how does that fit with what we've gotten about what bill taylor called the irregular channel of policy? >> the actual official channel the state department had no idea what was happening in the irregular channel. bill taylor was kind of the connection between the two, but obviously he wasn't involved in every single conversation that was had. s...