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So that's delusional. they had signed agreements. they were talking to the kremlin. it was not a light agreement. that's like saying you're a little bit pregnant. he was clearly in business with the russians. >> what is the -- what are the legal implications of him even suggesting that a pardon isn't off the table? he said that yesterday. he said that the day before to "the washington post." how do we judge when this gets into an obstruction area? >> well, it all depends on the specific facts. when you pardon someone who is testifying or could testify against you, who's part of an investigatio...

Will induce mueller to back off. i don't think it will, but that's the message he's trying to send. >> it was interesting, susan, 16 times the president said no collusion. not once did he say no obstruction, and he quoted dianne feinstein on collusion but not obstruction. what signs have you seen that this might be an area that robert mueller at this point is investigating? >> the obstruction area? >> obstruction. >> right. so that's clearly within sort of the purview of that original mandate that rod rosenstein gave to mueller, and also any investigation related to the termination of jim come...

Moving away -- well, this week at least, it seems to be moving away from the collusion question, the moneylaundering question by people like manafort, gates and flynn and over towards the obstruction area that seems to be where they're pushing the fresh. if i were thinking, that would be a whole another kettle of fish. different white house people who may have been part of a conversation about how to shut comey down, shut the whole prosecution down. and that's when you get into obstruction. >> from what little we can see about how mueller has organized his team, it would be more accurate to th...

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Sitting down with robert mueller. that's an interesting scenario to imagine. polls suggest that most americans want robert mueller to get to the bottom of this. if the president we to somehow avoid a face-to-face interview, do you think there would be political consequences? >> i don't necessarily think there would be political consequences. i think the president very much wants to meet with robert mueller. i think his lawyers may be concerned about how undisciplined he is. i can't imagine a more undisciplined figure to be deposed or interviewed which is why i'm sure they want a combination of...