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Clean. but now these two additional pieces that we've learned sequentially from jack smith's fairly determined and methodical investigation as andrew said, obstruction one, oh, actually, let's just make sure that we don't return some of these and telling aides who know that he asked them do that. and obstruction two, let's delete the serve. and if the government can prove these things and my interpretation is that they are trying to flip mr. nauta and mr. de oliveira as key witnesses who are in a lot of trouble if they don't cooperate, if the government can prove these things and can point the...

They open to persuasion on this issue? i wanted to talk to you tonight in part on your credibility on this issue because you've not been somebody who has been willing to throw out the rule or wanted to change the rules from day one. you're a constant on this. >> the reason for my reluctance is that what is, you know, this is a doubleedged sword. what we view as obnoxious obstruction two, four, six years from now when the few hsu is on the other foot, we might view as a precious shield to protect important environmental laws or, you name it. this is a hard call.

Issues like this. are they open to persuasion on this issue? i want to talk to you about your credibility on this issue. you are not someone willing to want to change the frulz day one. you were reluctant on this issue. i wonder if that helps you persuade your other colleagues who are sort of coming from the same position on you who maub haven't come as far as you have. >> the reason for my reluctance is that what is, you know, this is double-edged sword. what we view as obnoxious obstruction two, four, six years from now when the few hsu is on the other foot, we might view as a precious shiel...