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Stop the investigation by offering pardons, you show the american people the precedent with regard to nex nixon, you show them what the constitution says, then you begin to persuade the majority, the overwhelming majority to support. >> there is a link, i think, to what neera tanneden mentioned, the introduction of sweeping reform legislation, public financing, automatic voter registration, ethics rules. people see this all as a response to the attack on our democracy. again, it's part of building a public case that has a broad consensus -- >> about democratic integrity, about fighting corrupt...

And author of "trumped up." and bob bauer, a former white house counsel to president obama. gentlemen, welcome to both of you. on this spring holiday season. mr. dershowitz, i want to pick up on something we learned this week from a "new york times" report. the now former lawyer to the president -- lead lawyer, john dowd, who ended up resigning last week, there were reports he talked of pardons, potential pardons with the attorneys of michael flynn and paul manafort. if that pardon was dangled out there in your opinion, could that be used in an obstruction of justice case? >> look, i think the...

How hard is it to prove obstruction of justice from a president? >> well, it would be pretty hard especially if we are going from the baseline that maybe mueller wouldn't indict the president as current doj law guidance says. if you were to take the tweets, the actions behind closed doors, the reports of offering pardons for potential key witnesses before they were indicted as the times and the washington post have reported, some believe that mueller could try to build a case, this sort of composite case of obstruction. the same time the president has an enormous power to hire and fire. firing...