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Arguing over numbers. what do you say to this? you've been one of these p populists. why is it that you've struggled on this federal level and had a little more success on the state level politically? >> i think when the president weighs in more strongly you'll see a better, clearer message and you'll see us winning. i don't really disagree with john on that, or with the presumption of your -- with the assumption of your question. i think that -- i think i'm learning from watching ohio and wisconsin do this, because it really is whose side are you on? and we've got to fight back when they take...

Out how high do we set the bar? we might want to set is-t higher so republicans can't get there to have the political issue for the white house. >> pat, these numbers do show an opportunity for sure, that the republicans have? >> they really do. the main number's not the republican versus democrat but it is the energy, fire and enthusiasm gap that john referred to. they are really fired. the conservatives are and the p populists are. if barack obama will come out with a program which will sever these casino with credit default swap derivatives to banks, i think he would get support from middle...