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And you know they have their allegations about their machines. if we have proof they got in there and we don't know how and we don't know the extent think about the chaos in the current situation. and senator klobuchar and one of her colleagues wanted to put together a bill saying, hey, we're going to do paper backup in the states just in case, god forbid, if don lemon says they got in there, i didn't vote for him. they have paper backups. >> listen, you say you can have both. but if you're going to have both, you have to be armed with knowledge and the facts. i saw some of the -- quite frankl...

Require paper backups in future elections. so, that's part of the issue. elections in america even what you think of as national elections are not necessarily national. they're just a lot of local elections. >> they're complicated. joining us to discuss this, wendy wiser, director of democracy program at nyu. thank you for being here. walk us through this. the state that is don't have paper backups, what do they do to protect the vote? >> we have actually had a lot of redundant systems in place, regardless of what system you're voting on to secure the vote. >> good thing. >> we have increased ...

On this. from the guy in the basement doing this, to the chinese. instead of zeroing in on what our intelligence agencies actually know, what the threat is and working specifically the threat, he seems to not take it very seriously. even speaking off the cuff, he diminishes its seriousness. please tell me your system here and your strategy is more than we're going to have paper backups here. any sign of taking it more seriously i think is a hopeful one. i just don't see the evidence that they are doing something. >> that's the problem. give a gentle pat on the back that he is in the outright l...

We can't mention the word "russia" in the white house now without backlash from the president. he doesn't acknowledge it to the intel community. >> unbelievable. >> no mess suasures have been t. we need paper backups. >> all the cyber experts say the same thing. we don't know whether votes were changed because we don't have an audit of it, but the fact is, if you had paper ballots, at least you could secure them and count them. >> yeah. it is an insurance policy against this sort of meddling that even if something was to disrupt on election day, you can go back. bigger than this is the russian...

>> okay. what can the u.s. do to counter russian meddling in our elections? non-partisan counsel on foreign relations issue ed recommendatis a week ago. work closely with european partners to impose asset freezes and visa bans or kremlin officials and organizations known to be involved. also, state and local election boards should keep paper backups of ballots and voter registration records and limit access to election systems to only qualified vendors. number three, update campaign finance laws to cover a broader range of online activity, to enhance transparency requirements. having trouble s...