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Records obviously. they have a paper case, i think you and others have described it. why would manafort not plead guilty if he hadn't been promised already a pardon donbye president? >> that's a great question. think there's ever chance that he will plead guilty. sometimes it takes certain kinds of people, very prideful period certain period of time to come to grips with the reality they're face. it took gates some time. it seems like it was a dicey thing up to the end with gates and he's got four children and in a more precarious financial position than mr. manafort. but, look, it's hard to s...

Was a paper case. it was mainly documents accusing him of failing to register as a foreign lobbyist, accusing him of bank fraud and tax fraud. now you have this very compelling witness who can say that he was there every step of the way with mr. manafort as they committed those crimes together. and that is putting enormous pressure on manafort to plead guilty, which seems to be what robert mueller wants, because at the end of the day, this is not really about bank fraud and tax fraud. this is about whether the trump campaign colluded with russia. and it seems like robert mueller believes that ...

He would any snitch. he says what you got? and if gates says i have stuff on manafort, mueller says that's not good enough. chris, i could go to the federal courthouse three blocks from here if i can get my credentials back, i'm not a prosecutor anymore, i could win that case against manafort in a day. that's a paper case. >> so you think this is directly to trump? >> it's about trump, it's about trump junior, it's about kushner, it's about somebody with a higher in the food chain than it is manafort. >> when i was struck by this, this is in your wheel house, the way he has to lay down for the...

Learned tonight, what we should be paying the closest attention to? >> well, kasie, we have learned that a man who is essentially paul manafort's right-hand aide for years has now turned against him and is prepared, it seems, to go to court to testify that they together participated in some very serious crimes. and in order to get that deal, or rather rick gates has agreed to plead guilty to charges that could land him in some prison time, but could also result in probation if he offers substantial cooperation. so this is putting enormous pressure on paul manafort, up until now you had a stron...

Mueller three weeks ago in the office of the special counsel. and then he decides he wants to flip and mueller treats him like he would any snitch. he says the what you got. if gates says i have stuff on manafort, mueller says that's not good enough. i could go to the federal courthouse, if i could get my credentials back, i could win that case against manafort in a day. that's a paper case. >> you think this is directly to trump? >> it's about trump. it's about trump junior, it's about kushner, it's about somebody way higher in the food chain than it is manafort. >> what i was struck by this,...