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Criminality involved of any kind. i want that to come out loud and clear and not get clouded by anybody being fired, anybody being pardoned. when it's over, hey, he's the president of the united states. he retains his pardon power. nobody's taking that away from him. >> why do you giuliani keeps floating this possibility of pardons after the russian investigation is complete? >> well, i think he's a smart enough lawyer to know that the notion of floating them during the investigation might appear as though it's an offer to affect people's testimony. don't cooperate with mueller because you've ...

>> donald trump will avoid pardoning somebody who was an ally and in this case is joe arpaio and there's been speculation whether donald trump would get out of any allies of his and that's something that i would watch very, very closely here. >> walter, here's my question. if you're the feds and trying to get someone to flip. this case is totally different because it involves the president who has a pardoning power and is it more difficult to get paul manafort to flip because he's thinking maybe a pardon is in his future? >> that was the concern i expressed around the time that our payover rec...