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Come to washington, d.c., and potentially be the chief of staff in the white house. he was telling friends and associates this. that was never going to happen, but the way in which he was dismissed by trump in campaign meetings and, of course, for an administration role, clearly showed that this loyalty was a one-way street and remarkable it took this long for cohen to realize it. >> he doesn't seem to be holding out hope at this point for a pardon, it seems. >> the pardon issue goes back to the whole point, whether we've seen the president dole out pardons on a whim oftentimes and we've seen ...

This point. these prosecutors do operate independently unless they are fired. and that's what i think they are going to keep doing. >> just to be very brief on pardon issue, the president could only pardon michael cohen if he were to do so if cohen were found guilty of crimes on the federal level, right? that doesn't protect him from state charges. >> that's true. he's only under federal investigation. this sort of mythology has arisen that donald trump could be prosecuted by a state -- there's a reason why most white collar crime in the country is prosecuted by the feds. it's because the laws...

I hadn't thought about delaying mike flynn's sentence being delayed. dangling the prospect of pardon, there is a pardon history already with mr. flynn. >> and pardons are in the questions that mueller wants to ask trump about. he wants to ask what trump knew about this, did trump have surrogates reaching out to flynn to raise this prospect with him. there had been reporting last year by yahoo! news flynn had this call with the president in which the president said for him to stay strong. or the president was trying to send a message to him in that sense. so, there are sort of larger questions ...

Which was raised. i hadn't thought about delaying mike flynn's sentence being delayed. dangling the prospect of pardon, there is a pardon history already with mr. flynn. >> and pardons are in the questions that mueller wants to ask trump about. he wants to ask what trump knew about this, did trump have surrogates reaching out to flynn to raise this prospect with him. there had been reporting last year by yahoo! news flynn had this call with the president in which the president said for him to stay strong. or the president was trying to send a message to him in that sense. so, there are sort of...

Families being separated at the border, he has the power to end it but he has not. back with me now the panel. i want to continue on with the conversation we were having before then i'll get to the immigration things. jennifer this is for you, chris kept trying to press giuliani on the pardon issue. let's watch and we'll talk. >> he's not going to pardon anybody in this investigation, but he's not going to give up his right to pardon if a mischaracterization of justice -- >> he could and he might? >> of course he could. >> and he might? >> of course he might. how about he's not saying -- he ab...