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Anybody with the impression the military or cia was on the verge of tilting over in one political direction. that's not the case, i don't believe. >> well, i think what the book details -- and i want to bring you back in, eli, the book details the transfer of power, which is a little bit more than the ministerial functions, the transfer of power was in question, and you look at the scene and it was clear trump wanted pence to stop the peaceful transfer of power. you can't describe it as peaceful. i want to come back and read the section dan goldman describes about pardoning. eli, there was som...

Investigations. >> well, you are an expert in a league of your own in this category. i mean one of the only inspectors general that donald trump liked, i believe he put out a statement praising him this week, mr. horowitz, is the man who will do all of the investigations. so far the current attorney general and deputy attorney general have not tapped anyone other than mr. horowitz. is that the right way to understand the depth and the lengths and who was involved in what was clearly the politicization of the pardon process, of criminal sentencing, of domestic spying? >> well, i think the ig's ...

Everybody knows he would do this to reward him stone walling. if nixon would have parted the others, that would have sped up the process of his impeachment. it's obviously -- it's not like pardoning jack johnson, the african-american boxer from the early part of the 20th century who may have been screwed by the law. this is part of a coverup in itself a pardon for manafort. >> the pardon process -- >> this sentence itself is so lenient, laughably lenient, that it would, in fact, trigger that exact feeling that the president was playing politics with the justice system. there is a lot of reason...

I think it's incredibly reassuring to hear senator blumenthal say he believes if trump uses the pardon process, in essence to protect himself and to reward paul manafort for refusing to testify against trump, that congress will react badly. because if they don't uphold the rule of law, then it's shattered and we're nothing more than a banana republic. >> let's go back to the politics i agree with that completely. let's go back to the politics and who paul manafort is. he's not only a lobbyist and a fixer for the russians and for putin, but also he was instrumental in winning trump the white ho...

And pardons him, it seems the president is protecting himself >> and the pardon process isn't meant to be a tool to put himself above the rule of law. the president is supposed to be like everybody else unour constitutional system. accountable. maybe not while he's in the presidency but certainly for violating the law on capitol hill or after he leaves office. i think it's incredibly reassuring to hear senator blumenthal say he believes if trump uses the pardon process, uneszance to protect himself and reward paul manafort for refusing to testify against trump, that congress will react badly. ...