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Brazenly defied the court and said, i'm going to continue any way. that's what led to the contempt of court finding. and that's what he was about to be sentenced for. and that's what ended as a result of the pardon. that legal process. >> again, not discussed at all by the president. as far as i could tell until this point. michael, what the president did talk about, though, was how many other bad pardons presidents have made in the past. it was almost as if he was saying look, there's a hall of shame out there for presidential pardons, and this one is in a long line of controversial president...

Other bad pardons presidents have made in the past. it was almost as if he was saying look, there's a hall of shame out there for presidential pardons, and this one is in a long line of controversial presidential pardons. is that a good defense? >> it's not a good defense, but it's a fact. if you're pardoning something, they're in a criminal jam-up or they've been in jail. we saw president obama free a terrorist who was responsible for defendants and hundreds of bombings. >> you're doing it, too. >> absolutely. listen, pardons are, by their very nature, controversial. i think that president tr...