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Stuff, because that goes on his permanent record, and it's very possible a whole lot of attention is about to be laid on mike pence. >> exactly. and this notion that he was just repeatedly kept in the dark on these extremely sensitive matters around the national security adviser is kind of absurd. i mean i've spoken to people in pence's circle. that's the message they are puing. look, he didn't know about this. the white house is still saying that trump wasn't informed about this flynn turk iish lobbying deal but how many times can pence go out there and make statements that turn out later not...

That trump wasn't informed about this flynn turk iish lobbying deal but how many times can pence go out there and make statements that turn out later not to be true or to be very dubious and just get a pass on oh, well maybe he wasn't told about it? something is not ringing true there. >> ali, to a more elemental question, we asked this on the broadcast last night and probably the night before, what is it about trump and flynn? what is it? >> we are not even two years into this relationship which is odd. they met in summer of 2015. what may be working in donald trump's favor is that we are not...

Troubles on the horizon for him. still, compared to donald trump, he's many republicans' dream. >> matthew you can understand that quote that nbc got from a west wing official. and that is if he was kept in the dark, well, that's just malpractice. the only thing worse is if he wasn't and learned all of this stuff, because that goes on his permanent record, and it's very possible a whole lot of attention is about to be laid on mike pence. >> exactly. and this notion that he was just repeatedly kept in the dark on these extremely sensitive matters around the national security adviser is kind of ...