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There's an appeal to the idea of particularly if you were experiencing decline, particularly if you're experiencing a kind of unraveling, there's an idea that, like, we can contain it, keep it over there, we can send in the guards, we can send in the cops and they can keep that disorder contained and you are going to be secure and you are going to be okay. and the appeal of that kind of order is very subtle and it's very seductive and very powerful and very universal. i mean, i have felt it in my life. many a time. i've felt the siren call that particularly growing up as 12 and 13-year-old in ...

Is we all have to recognize, you know, the way i've been thinking about it as i think about the book, there's a donald trump in all of us. what i mean by that, what he appealed to -- there's an appeal to the idea of worker. there's an appeal to the idea of particularly if you were experiencing decline, particularly if you're experiencing a kind of unraveling, there's an idea that, like, we can contain it, keep it over there, we can send in the guards, we can send in the cops and they can keep that disorder contained and you are going to be secure and you are going to be okay. and the appeal of...

I mean, i have felt it in my life. many a time. i've felt the siren call that particularly growing up as 12 and 13-year-old in new york city when the crime rate was at a peak amount, so before we talk about, like, criminal justice policy or policing, like, the deeper truth is an emotional truth about how we, as political actors, respond to these appeals. >> yeah. >> and recognizing the way they speak to us, and i mean this specifically in this context of white people, frankly, how they speak to us and learning to take that reaction and sort of interrogate it. >> do we ever get any better in te...