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Themselves about what he is doing, that's just how he talks or doesn't mean what he says, and he's very good of bending people to his will and that's what he did with michael. i think that's no surprise. i think michael is sincere that he does not want to be the fall guy for donald trump's life, and for things that are happening that, you know, is at least clearly seems directed at trump. the president's defense is lying is not a crime and there's no legal implication, and that may be true. when you are the president of the united states, the bar is supposed to be higher than that's not a crim...

You know? like when the russians are trying to help you, they're trying to give you opposition research, and the people around donald trump junior are like, how did he not call the authorities j or wow, he's really kind of pathetic. >> and joyce on that point and the point michael made, remind us how unnormal it is. like you invited who to trump tower based on the predicate of what? >> the first thing that should have happened when the offer for this meeting was made is that someone on the campaign staff should have picked up the phone and called the fbi. it's illegal to accept or solicit dona...

Interesting that even the people who are trying to help the trump campaign with dirt provided by the russian government, even though -- he was their kind of handoff point, and even they came away from this meeting as like, poor guy. you know? like when the russians are trying to help you, they're trying to give you opposition research, and the people around donald trump junior are like, how did he not call the authorities j or wow, he's really kind of pathetic. >> and joyce on that point and the point michael made, remind us how unnormal it is. like you invited who to trump tower based on the ...

Really kind of pathetic. >> and joyce on that point and the point michael made, remind us how unnormal it is. like you invited who to trump tower based on the predicate of what? >> the first thing that should have happened when the offer for this meeting was made is that someone on the campaign staff should have picked up the phone and called the fbi. it's illegal to accept or solicit donations from a foreign country in connection with an election, and if donald trump junior didn't know that at this point, although he should have, paul manafort, an experienced campaigner certainly was aware of...

To pass this thing. >> the point michael made and rattner as well but michael's point, what is it that we pant affordable and specific leaver is now they just can't seem to pull it all together. to get this done, it's been said here on the show many times, you've got to make it pliechlt they would find it if they would get serious workout place.