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>> the united states pays roughly $1 trillion a year on poverty programs, most of which disproportionately benefit blacks. is that not enough? >> that's not reparations. that's not reparations. jim crow did not disproportionately hurt black people. redlining did not disproportionately hurt black people. it was targeted at black people specifically. so it's not the same thing. at all. we don't have a policy at all. and i say this about affirmative action. i say this about any policy that you want to mention. we do not have a policy in this country that directly targets the victims of white supr...

Much it costs. turns it it's probably not the $1.4 billion, $1.5 billion first mentioned. maybe around $30 million or so. does it occur to you that there's a great deal of focus and flipping around the mainstream media to say this is a military boondoggle and this is the same media that if i were to package a number of food programs and poverty programs that have never worked, school lunch programs where the kids pass up the food all together and don't get it at all, as a blimp, as a blimp it would be covered. not as a blimp, zero coverage. and you think i'm upset? you should hear john mccain....

The gap, not about the floor. >> well, i want to talk about the floor. in the united states when we look at poverty, yes, there's -- yes, poverty programs have worked for people. for seniors, we have all but eradicated, brought up the floor of poverty. if you look at the country, poverty has deep ened in the united states to historic terms. so not just the number of people living below poverty but the number of people living below half the poverty rate has grown. so the floor, in fact, has fallen for a lot of people. >> let me talk about the gap. i'll take on the middle. the 80% of americans i...

Going to be the nominee. i think early on jeb has talked about what it takes to win the election in general. there was a lot of criticism. it gave donald the room to come in and capture 21% of the vote. so don't -- i've got the criticism of what jeb said. he's talking about the opportunity to create what he created in florida as governor which is a pretty good record he hasn't talked enough about. >> david, jeb bush maybe has a point on poverty programs. because as ronald reagan once said, we fought a war on poverty and poverty won. same question, how is this going to play in the general elect...

Programs have filled miserably in lifting the truly disadvantaged system up to a position where they can move towards the middle class. so liberals are right to say that any poverty programs have reduced poverty and conservatives are right to say that these same programs may help foster a permanent middle class. and from that starting point the two can come together and learn what's worked and improve on what hasn't. proven that we can indeed reduce poverty. the trick is, and al you havell you have to do is walk away any major city, the trick is to increase access to opportunity. it comes thro...