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they have to play by rules. there are 180,000 coalition soldiers in 2007 in iraq, which tamed the insurgency, didn't beat the insurgency. so what america does through the cia is it works out who the proxy militias are. because the proxy militias don't have to play by rules. there's a big question that the u.s. administration need to ask themselves a to the momentum is, do we play with iran on this or don't we, and if we don't, saudi have to step up to the plate. >> i was watching, jim, it's a horrible story, a bunch, a dozen or so of personnel carriers and they're pretty immune to a rocket attack. they're strong armored. put some suicide bombers in these cockpits, in these front seats, go driving into the iraqi army front lines and blow it apart, because they're willing to die in these like hiroshima explosions going on. how do you fight an army like that? is michael kay right? you have to arm your own wild men? >> the suicide killings were also an important part of what made things so tough, right after the invasion, in anbar and elsewhere.
force, you leave a power vacuum which allows anyone to do anything they like. and that's what we're seeing at the moment. that's why isis has been allowed to grow -- >> okay what do we do now? >> okay what we do now is we understand what the critical capability of isis is. and to me it's the ability to be able to operate asymmetrically. basically, isis play by no rules. if america get on the ground they have to play by rules. there are 180,000 coalition soldiers in 2007 in iraq, which tamed the insurgency, didn't beat the insurgency. so what america does through the cia is it works out who the proxy militias are. because the proxy militias don't have to play by rules. there's a big question that the u.s. administration need to ask themselves a to the momentum is do we play with iran on this or don't we and if we don't saudi have to step up to the plate. >> i was watching jim, it's a horrible story a bunch, a dozen or so of personnel carriers and they're pretty immune to a rocket attack. they're strong armored.