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Care debate with emergency rooms and so forth. >> in other words, you didn't put any money in, you're getting the higher wage and the benefits the guys who paid the money are receiving, you're still getting them, but you didn't pay for them. it's a free rider system. >> i mean, there are closed shops, there are open shops, right? that decision can be made there, correct? >> yeah. i think. >> if i'm a union guy or woman, i'd say, okay, well, let's negotiate for union members. >> yeah. >> and union members will be put on a different -- put in a different category, and we'll give them training, h...

And you and i and everybody else ends up picking up for them. i don't think having a free rider system in health is any more appropriate than having a free rider system in any other part of our society. >> let me ask you about the u.s. role in the world. we're still digesting the intelligence that's coming out of the raid in pakistan that killed osama bin laden. you said in february, an honest assessment on 9/11 this year, ten years after the attack, would have to lead to the conclusion that we are simply and slowly losing the war. do you still feel we're losing the war against terror? >> abso...

>> but that is the individual mandate, is it not? >> it's a variation on it. >> so you won't use that issue against mitt romney? >> no, but it's a system that allows people to have a range of choices designed by the economy, but i think setting the precedent -- there are an amazing number of people who think they ought to be given health care, so a large number of the uninsured or earn under $75,000 a year don't buy any health insurance because they want to buy a second house or a better car or go on vacation, and you and i and everybody else ends up picking up for them. i don't think having a...