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Crucible, just how much influence would mcnamara and others have in helping the president move away from that reticence into more action. because, remember, they had gone if a handful of the 16,000 in a very, very short period of time of having, you know, advisers on the ground in vietnam. >> and melody to bring you back in, can you talk more broadly about that transition in general, from the kennedy administration, to the johnson administration. we were talking earlier about sort of robert cairo, the historian, the writer popularized the idea that a lot of what john f. kennedy wanted to do, l...

The photo of him getting closer, leaning in, we have the famous stories, right? robert cairo has documented in 1,000-page volumes of him arm-twisting in the oval office. the question is, how much of this was magical presidential leadership dust and how much was this -- just the sort of -- i mean, we forget lbj, who had the biggest mandate in the world and he had the death -- he had the death of the martyr john f. kennedy that rallied public -- >> president obama came in a reservoir of -- >> it wasn't 64. i want to bring into the conversation because she is someone who has seen this up close. j...