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Us. let's get to some of the substantive issues. you're urging rosenstein to force president trump to either fire him rather than resign. why do you think that would help protect the overall mueller investigation? >> well, because if he does resign, if he's somehow cajoled into resigning the president can slot someone into that position under the vacancies act that could control the mueller investigation, and the president has made it very clear he wants his own roy kohn to do his business, never mind the interest of justice. he wants someone completely loyal to him, not the constitution. so t...

Perceived in congress as the voice of reason and respect for the norms in a white house that has very little of either. he was a calming and moderating influence, willing to stand up to the president and say no in the white house that has very few people willing to do it. and he said no to firing mueller. he did go to jeff sessions. and try to persuade him to recuse himself. which sessions refused to do, he basically had no choice. mcgahn accepted that refusal. but the president never has. he wants a roy kohn. someone who will have his back and serve his interests. i think mcgahn's leaving wil...

White house is up to. >> first, mcgahn has been perceived in congress as the voice of reason and respect for the norms in a white house that has very little of either. he was a calming and moderating influence, willing to stand up to the president and say no in the white house that has very few people willing to do it. and he said no to firing mueller. he did go to jeff sessions. and try to persuade him to recuse himself. which sessions refused to do, he basically had no choice. mcgahn accepted that refusal. but the president never has. he wants a roy kohn. someone who will have his back and s...

A politician or a well connected member of the madison club say to one another. so really this is language that goes much further back even than the 1990s or 1980s, really goes back to the 1950s and '40s, when donald trump was watching his dad start to cut deals in new york city. >> speaking of the 50s, you talk about roy kohn during the 50s, he was representing and supporting senator joseph mccarthy, he also had dealings with mob bosses as well, as a legal analyst, right? how did that influence even further? >> well, if you think about it, the lawyers that donald trump has had representing hi...

Riddled with communists that we have to be concerned about. he was making it all up. and the president has consistently -- he learned at the knee as you pointed out of roy cohen, cohen was more than his lawyer he was his mentor. and cohen's tactics were mccarthy's tactics. throughout his business life, trump's tactics have been cone's tactics and mccarthy's tactics and the birtherism question is a mccarthyite tactic. >> it is interest iing if you believe joe mccarthy was a -- not a good guy and bad person. you wouldn't hire roy cohen. if you thought joe mccarthy was ab hor end, you know, roy k...