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The idea was how could the two sides understand each other and this whole struggle of trying to express themselves is one of the really important aspects for both the humans and the ape characters and we wanted to really explore that and working in andy circus and the different performers to figure out how primitive it should be and that was fun and it's also great in that sequence because we went and shot this movie under conditions that hadn't been done before. we actually are in the forest and we are there in the rain and mocap equipment has never been pushed to the limits and we are hoping...

Even though in this particular movie they start from a position of strength. so i think there's something to that as well. but another theme you explore here is the leaders in the movie are seen as weak when they want to seek peace, right? strength comes to them through wanting war and wanting aggression. do you think that's a theme that sort of resonates with people in the modern world? >> i think that's always -- one of the things cesar in talking about his character and trying to work on his character with andy and the writer, we always talked about empathy. the think about cesar is because...