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The president very much tried to steal an election. that's without a doubt. there were people, jeffrey clark we know of, inside the justice department who tried to help them and people who held the line. it's not at all clear that what they did was illegal. i think we need to have full transparency about this. if congress doesn't -- if congress finds that they don't have the full ability either because people won't show up for interviews. they can get documents but people won't show up and former employees won't talk to the department of justice inspector general, which they don't have to do, ...

>> never go wrong by endorsing what he said. i have two thoughts. one, it's really a shame when the idea is, is there a way to make something less responsive to democracy? >> yes. >> it's terrible to think that that's the route. the other is that already the appointment process could be changed, remember, whoever is appointed is serving at the pleasure of the president, just like the fbi director has a ten-year term. that didn't stop -- there's political consequences, but it doesn't stop the president from removing that person. yes, you could change the appointment process. i do think that you...

>> matt, let's go into what there is -- a lot of people say garland has work to do. what does that mean? what is it that he can do that would somehow protect the justice department from interference from a future president trump? is there anything he can do? is it really just disclosure of what happened during the trump years that is really the best sunshine that could be -- the best sort of disinfectant you can hand to try to publically shame folks about what happened with justice in the trump years? >> disclosure is very important. the justice department has gotten a lot of criticism lately ...

Need to make decisions about what the reforms ought to be. as a starting point, reforms at the justice department when doj should get involved in election contests that need to be considered. we need stronger rules about the contacts between the white house and justice department. there's a memo on that it's binding policy. but it tells you who can talk to who at each building. it doesn't tell you what they can and can't talk about. we should look at trying to wall some of those off. all the strongest intentional reforms in the world at doj won't stop a future president or future officials at ...

Sort of -- i don't know if you call it non-partisan. but there's this clearly many justice department veterans have some sort of spine here that perhaps a weaker politically minded person would not have. >> you know, i have mixed feelings about this. it's right, there are a number of people with whom i thought acted completely inappropriately at times at the justice department. bill barr and jeffrey rosen, chief among them, who acted with great integrity at this juncture. the question i wondered -- it's not just the people at the justice department. it's people at different levels of the repub...