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Logic of every one of those republicans who are following what i now call the strauss defense. that's just straussman. >> well, still with joe, willie and me we have white house reporter for the associated press jonathan lemire. historian and author of the soul of america, jon meacham. and joining the conversation, former acting u.s. solicitor general neil. "new york times" reporter is with us and senior white house reporter for nbc news digital shannon pettypiece joins us. joe. >> i'm just curious, jonathan lemire, since you cover the white house and you had a great article that was picked up...

Bhoon was on tvindman who was on the call. and now lindsey graham going i'm not going to let this come to the senate until i hear from the whistle-blower. why? you said his testimony was hearsay. and now we find out the evidence and now you prefer hearsay evidence to a first-hand account? why, lindsey, you're changing your tune and it seems almost as if you're not interested in the truth getting out. that's fascinating. >> remember, he's chief among republicans who said i'm not even going to read the transcripts of the testimony. i'm not interested. the whole process is a sham, even though i'm...

They can't change the rules. they follow the rules. when were the rules written last, january 2015. who signed them? john boehner. who enacted them? a republican majority. >> dana: the point that the judge is making is the rules are what they are and that the republicans put them in place in 2015 and now they're reaping what they sowed. >> that applies if you're having a normal oversight hearing to look at a military mission in somalia, for example. that would be appropriate in private. what you cannot do is put america and an election at risk in a private, secret process. we've had three impe...

Does it hurt the democrats in those very districts that patrick just mentioned? >> no. first of all, there will be public hearings by things giving. secondly, the only reason it is slow down is that republicans keep behaving the way they did yesterday. the facts are everything an investigation. nothing else matters but the facts. we have as of the testimony by ambassador taylor, we know for a fact that three crimes were committed. trump solicited aid from a foreign government for u.s. election. second, taylor's testimony, first hand proof there is a quid pro quo, that he demanded an investigat...

Their messaging on the process point and will it change anything? >> i think republicans are starting to break through on the fundamental unfairness of it. it's not about whether you have the power to do it or not. congress has the power to do whatever it wants. it's a political process. the issue, is it right? when it comes to undoing the will of the people you better get it right. if you don't, you're wasting everybody's time and that's why i have argued all along with the president did was inappropriate. he should not have brought up the bidens in that phone call. i have acknowledge that. t...