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And as that was continuing year after year -- by the way, largely, again, as a result of his actions and alienating ukrainians by seizing crimea and invading the separatists of the donbas. as that was happening, it no doubt got to a point where he thought if he didn't do something to change the dynamic, it was just going to happen. >> it feels like your meeting with sergei lavrov this week, if it happens, it means no war. if it doesn't happen, it means war has begun. is that the fair way to look at that meeting? >> that's a pretty good summary, chuck. yes. look, we're doing everything we can. ...

His state of mind to do it? does it smack of desperation? >> i think it's less desperation than this is what he has up his sleeve to respond to the escalatory spiral and it's his response to the western response to his war on ukraine. you remember russia has the world's largest nuclear arsenal. it's an obvious card to play. we've been here before. he threatened to use them against western countries who meddled against russia's war in ukraine. and in 2015, he was talking about the annexation of crimea the year before. and he said that he gave a similar order the russian nuclear forces in case e...

Including that. >> i want to ask you about the fighting that's taking place at a mir tear airfield 20 miles from the capital of kyiv. do we know who is in control of that airfield tonight and is it possible kyiv falls in the next 24 hours? >> i'm not in a position to comment on exactly what's going on on the ground at this moment, but what we do know and part of the russian plan has been to put kyiv in danger, to assault the capital, to go after other major cities. we're seeing forces come in from the north, from the east, from the south, that's all part of the plan that we've laid out for the...

We have been here before. he threatened to use them against western countries who meddled against russia's war in ukraine and in 2015 he was talking about the annexation of crimea the year before, and he gave a similar order in case everything went wrong and the west in his mind tried to stop russia from seizing crimea from ukraine. this is very much in pattern with him making threats and the nuclear doctrine. >> president zelenskyy does not say i'm too confident, and if it achieves anything it's who is prepared to give what. what is your read on these talks? >> i think it's more the russians ...

Office's, fleeing to russia in 2014. putin was not happy. he had lost his puppet president, there are huge pro democracy protests next door. this was a seismic moment for the russian president, you can see that in three brazen geopolitical moves afterwards. first, seizing crimea from ukraine. almost immediately after those pro democracy protests in ukraine, he sent his little green men, no flags on their uniforms, they occupied russian government buildings that russia hopes to control. it was at that point the largest european land grab since world war ii. putin basically got away with it. the...