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For -- to help ukraine defend itself against russia. >> so let's take that to dahlia. how important is it beyond the particulars that the case against the president involved protecting democracy itself? because to your point, there were people in the country who feel that whatever happened with russia, bob mueller did an exhaustive investigation and he didn't charge anyone for election conspiracy. there are people who feel that the russia stuff was ultimately overplayed at a criminal level when bob mueller didn't find a russia-u.s. criminal conspiracy. and now they're hearing, no, he's doing i...

Perjured himself, he walked it back. everyone can understand what happens here. this is as easy to comprehend as the bribery charges themselves are. >> yeah, joyce, you're hitting on that other point, which is, as i mentioned, a real thing. roger stone in fairness to him was not ultimately charged with an election conspiracy or colluding with the russians, but federal prosecutors viewed his lies to congress as enough among other things to bring him into court in a trial that starts today and we'll get to later in the hour. your view then is that sondland, who is relatively new to all of this a...

There are two theories. here's one good for the white house. a theory many are accused of crimes, innocent until proven guilty, if convicted did bad things, associated with people, that's as far as it went, bad apples defense and that's it. the other theory is that the people on the screen you see now and other individuals close to trump and rudy giuliani did know about the extent of this, that there was a larger criminal plot to take over u.s. foreign policy, not for the benefit of the united states, not for ideological reasons, rather for criminal reasons, for abuse of power reasons, get rid...

This information. and we're going see if this cover-up continues because we've just issued subpoenas to giuliani, to other officials, and if they don't provide information, the american people will know they're continuing to hide information from congress and the american people. and we want the truth to come out, and it's going to show some very bad things that the president and his officials engaged in. >> if those folks resist, does that become an article of impeachment? >> it absolutely could. obstruction of congress could be article impeachment. we're going to see based on what comes out ...

It, as intelligence, against federal law, almost never made it to the senate, because of the trump orders. and now today, as i was just discussing with the congressman, well, now it's gone to the senate and the house. one more thing to consider as congress gears up for what could be a true constitutional question. james madison said it like this in 1787, the president could be impeached if he might betray his trust to foreign powers. that's what's so different here. whatever you think about russian collusion, there's a lot of debates about that and i've reported here that bob mueller never fou...