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Programs, not when obama did, but when they did the welfare reform act, there were very few people getting welfare checks. >> you're letting it grow exponentially without any test to decide whether or not it should be grown. if things are getting better in the economy like president obama likes to talk about, why is our welfare spending and all of the other redistribution of wealth programs expanding. >> women and infant children, money has gone down. head start money has gone down. what you're talking about is increasing medicaid. you're right about that, but i don't consider that welfare. do...

Do you consider that welfare in. >> i think unemployment insurance going from 26 weeks to 98 weeks and then maybe further is a redistribution/welfare program. almost tripling the food stamp program is a welfare program. if you are expanding the redistribution. you take the people who are earning and give to the people who need it. >> we have a semantics problem. >> if you look at what he was rooting for with immigration reform, that was going to create another problem of additional unle independence for the nation. if i could say something on obama going after fox news, it seems like it's the ...

Militarism and for supported for people like mubarak, the people we've supported. people say, hey, why do we do those kind of things? oh, it's in national defense. i think it's a perception and a semantics problem that we have to try to reeducate the people to understand what we're talking about. >> aren't we at a moment, joe, with the budget or mark halperin where both sides are taking a moment to put out just a little bit and then a little bit more? isn't there some political football -- >> the fact is they're only nibbling at 12%. >> not even close. >> this is not a serious conversation. it...