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Joining us is ambassador wendy sherman, former undersecretary of state during the obama administration. also an msnbc global affairs contributor. ambassador sherman, what should the secretary of state have known and done about what rudy giuliani was up to? >> if rudy giuliani was going to ukraine and meeting in other countries with aides to the head of ukraine, the state department -- as the president's political lawyer, the state department really should have had nothing to do with it. to put senior foreign service officers, to put ambassadors, to put working people, civil servants in the cro...

Sherman, former undersecretary of state during the obama administration. also an msnbc global affairs contributor. ambassador sherman, what should the secretary of state have known and done about what rudy giuliani was up to? >> if rudy giuliani was going to ukraine and meeting in other countries with aides to the head of ukraine, the state department -- is the president's political lawyer, the state department really should have had nothing to do with it. to put senior foreign service officers, to put ambassadors, to put working people, civil servants in the cross hairs of a political controv...

Giuliani acting as the president's setup guy. his interview last night on a another network was really to get the story out there that this was all about going after investigating joe biden, when, in fact, glenn kessler of "the washington post" has long said that the facts do not support that there's any wrongdoing here whatsoever, been cleared by the ukrainians regarding vice president biden's son. there's no there there. and yet to keep trump's group supporting him and trying to ensure his re-election in part so he can ensure that he will not be indicted, he will not be taken to court, rudy ...