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jenny kleenman and dr larny chen formerly policy director for mitt romney's presidential campaign. hello and welcome to the programme. just a week ago, 150 people ran into trouble in a small wooden boat off the coast of calabria in italy. on board were asylum seekers from afghanistan, somalia, iran. there were 20 children on board, including a newborn baby. 67 of them drowned. it's an appalling reminder of the risks involved. it is just as dangerous crossing the english channel. more than 16,000 made thatjourney in small boats last year, up from 300 in 2018. but how do you stop them?...

How china views the united states, how view the us relationship. a very different pathway we've been on for certainly the last decade or so. this marked change is something the united states is in some ways part of but in some ways has to respond to because it's not business as usual any more, that is for sure. jenny, what will concern people in washington is he made in equivalence today against the us applying defensive weapons ukraine and to taiwan and the chinese applying legal aid to russia. do you think that's the pretext for what comes next? i that's the pretext for what comes next? ~ . ...