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Mass surveillance outside the united states. i don't think the chinese government should have a free hand to engage in surveillance inside the united states. i think you have to draw some lines. one of the problems we are seeing through the disclosures is the nsa hasn't drawn the lines. and intelligence committees haven't drawn the lines. only now is the public being invited into the debate. being invited into the debate because of the disclosures. >> go ahead. >> yeah. look. it would be nice if the russians and chinese stopped spying. they're not going to. that's why we have counterintelligen...

Members of gang of eight or intelligence committee of specific ways this has been compromised. you are saying to be clear, you are saying you think they have. >> absolutely. yes. >> i've don't thinning they have. been asked several times. we are not going to be able to resolve that here. the important point, this is something that you alluded to. its the need for this debate about the scope of the nsa's surveillance activities both inside the united states and outside the united states. i think that -- as you say, that, this, this debate about this survey lane activities inside the united stat...

>> i would say yes to all of those. they can turn them on with the power turned off the device. that's pretty scary. >> today many are saying there is no reason to listen to snowed den because he broke the law and is a traitor. his defenders emphasize most reports of government wrongdoing from watergate, and surveillance to blackmail martin luther king they all required leaks. no matter what you think of snowden, what matters is the evidence he released. that evidence was overwhelming of government agencies running operations some of which the white house says president obama didn't even know ...

I have wanted to have for a long time. that is a different matter from the vast majority of snowden leaks which are about the nsa foreign intelligence mission. the damage there has been devastating. it is beyond disingenuous for mr. snowden to suggest, nsa cannot show damage. they will not, because the it is classified. a false game. i want to delineate between the two. i welcome domestic debate. i hope congress acts in the manner that represents the will of the american public. whatever that is. a very different issue from what most of mr. snowden has done. >> i think to be fair, the nsa has ...

>> john, why do you dispute that? >> no. complete nonsense. and transparent nonsense. first of all, has meta-data collection been important. a debate we have to have. >> hold on. john, john. hold on. let me tell you the debate we are having. you said that what jamil said isn't true. apparently there are specifics. can you substantiate that? >> you want me to divulge classified on national television. i am not going to t if the senator said there is no damage from the leaks, damage to the u.s. britain, canada, australia. the damage to australia, in nearby yeah. massive damage. biggest most dama...