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Interview he did this trumpian thing where he said i'm looking into things and he doesn't really mean it. and, mostly, i would suspect that people around him still are urging him to just pump the brakes a little bit on this to say, to address pardons only after, for instance, the mueller investigation is done so it doesn't look like he's trying to impede it. but trump is, if anything, compulsive. so, who knows. i don't know what comes next. >> see, i think the danger has changed here. shifted. for a year everybody was talking about how the danger has been the danger as mueller. so, what happen...

And the logic, by the way, of firing manafort. he has to fire mueller at the same time. incredible injustice. mueller is prosecuting innocent people and not fair and pardon michael flynn but none of that will change what's going on in the southern district of new york, which is more jeopardizing him than mueller is. >> okay. so, benjamin and then katty, please follow up. benjamin, this is a massive investigation, ultimately, about the national security of the united states of america. and whether or not our elections were tampered with by the russians which there is clear evidence that this is...

Yet where they feel that their conscience demands they come out and speak out against the president and support mueller publicly and talk about hearings on some of these allegations. we could get to that point where there's something out there so egregious they have to take that stand. right now, if they speak out against the president, they alienate their base. if they speak out for him, they alienate swing voters. >> is that maybe that point, that where people draw a line, if he decides to pardon paul manafort? one of the things that struck me about this, noelle, is he used to have really go...

Chief law enforcement officer? >> well, you've got to look at how the republicans as a whole view donald trump. they think he's very successful. that he has checked off promises that he has made to them. they voted for him because they expected certain things done. and he is going through a check list of marking them off. you've also got to realize he's -- a lot of republicans, or maybe a lot of people that support trump or his base, are looking at this repeated attack on donald trump, the person. and it's -- >> but not so much anymore. i know this whole witch hunt mantra seemed to be working....

>> you still support mueller, right? >> this as congressman tom cole, former head of the national republican congressional committee, has advice for fellow republicans. quote, keep your powder dry and don't rush to attack or defend anybody because you just don't know enough to have a reaction that you can still defend three months from now. with me now director of progressive programming for sirius xm zerlina maxwell. former republican congressman, david jolly. david, in the mcconnell case i think his silence speaks volumes. >> it does. listen, and in the words of tom cole and in the silence o...