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Defenses. >> how do you think that will then in turn play for any negotiations between mitch mcconnell and chuck schumer? >> i think if they get to where -- in the clinton trial, as you asked, there were unanimous agreement on the rules. the rules were the way senators comported themselves and then they voted on individual witnesses, which took 51 votes. what we see with murkowski and there are a number of other at-risk republican senators, at-risk meaning re-election at risk, they're going to look at this very different. that's not acquittal. that's changing the rules so there can be witnesse...

And what we see is joe biden is looming large and winning in this race in most of the national polls and overwhelming number of votes that vote after the first four states, all because he can bill that coalition. >> you have set me up perfectly, bakari to lead me in to the next part of the statement where i want to touch on you were quoted in an article in "the new york times" titled "but the i would vote for joe biden republicans". there is talk in the article about not just independents, but moderate republicans that would in fact go for joe biden. how big do you think that voting bloc of re...

So i think there is a number of individuals that if we get the enthusiasm and energy, whomever it may be, and i think joe biden probably right now has the best chance to do that, should focus on energizing those voters who chose the couch over hillary clinton and donald trump, not worrying about the small sliver who may or may not hold their nose and vote for donald trump. >> governor kasich, bakari seller, great to have you both with us. >> thank you. >> thank you. up next, the holiday buzz in washington. new reporting the president is searching for his next secretary of state. that, of cou...

Republicans and moderates and independents are sick and tired of donald trump, but no one is counting on that small sliver of the country. republicans, we always get to this point, but i think governor kasich will agree with me, republicans, they always fall in love. democrats -- excuse me. republicans fall in lines. democrats like to fall in love. at the end of the day, many of them will hold their nose and vote for donald trump, understanding what they will get. what democrats have to focus on and whether or not it's joe biden or bernie sanders or i really don't believe michael bloomberg wil...

>> erica, there are a significant number of republicans who run happy with donald trump. how big? i don't know. 20%, maybe something along those lines. they don't like him. but i got to tell you, they don't want to go hard left. they don't want medicare for all and all that. i just talked to a republican friend of mine today. i said what would it take for you to vote for a democrat. he said well, i probably could vote for joe biden because he doesn't want to tear it all down. he wants to fix things. he's got a good attitude. people can like him. i think joe biden's problem is people have been ...