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Legal requirement? i've made the argument in the past there are three elements that would put russia on that list. the first is, russia continues to provide sanctuary to a terrorist group that the trump administration is a terror designation back in april 2020. this is a group also that's engaged second, the russian federation has a long past of political assassinations. there was one in 2006 against. it's the same reason why north korea essentially was added to the state sponsored terrorism list in 2017 for those political assassinations. and the russian federation, which is th is the great i...

Would result from placing russia on this list that, for instance, other countries, such as north korea and iran are on right now? >> so, it would put russia in a really small category of pariah countries joining iran, north korea, syria and cuba to the state sponsor of terrorism list. it would be the symbolism behind that. every day we see the terrorism of russian federation in ukraine. it would actually have real impact. heretofor the biden administration has focused sanctions on individuals and organizations, going after the oligarchs, sanctioning putin and lavrov. this would have a signific...

Binary choice, whereby if we continue to send more weapons to the ukrainians, to defend themselves, it may not bring about a peaceful end to the war. it may defeat the russians. but it may come at a great cost for ukrainians who are suffering and losing cities analyzed by the thousands. >> well, we can expand what we are doing vis-à-vis sanctions. we have not used every sanction tool at this point. and one of the arguments i made back in march, in the l.a. times, was the possibility of the russian federation being added to the state sponsor of terrorism list, further restricting the flow of a...

Tool would -- i mean, some people think that that will have a impact on diplomatic relations, not allowing for the u.s. and russia to engage diplomatically. but in my experience at the state department we have had other countries like iran on the state sponsored terrorism list, like north korea and many others, who have actually wanted to come off that list. so, in fact, i would argue that this would be an additional piece of leverage for the biden administration to use with putin to essentially into a device negotiations. and in fact, we have not seen that seriousness yet. so, i think we need...

Do you think for example when the food -- when jose andrés folks get injured and their facilities get wiped out that that just is collateral damage? or it's been saying, we want to starve those people. >> well, the specific case, i don't know. i want to be clear about that. but you don't get the benefit of the doubt. when you are deliberately killing civilians. american forces have killed civilians, innocent civilians in the past and wars. we all know that. but when we do, it we say, it was a mistake. we investigated, we try not to do it. have you heard anybody talking in those terms from mos...