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We're seeing it now, we borrowed that from an aristotelian line of thought. madison had made a study of montesque and later at montpelier in the months before the constitutional convention. what they saw was we had to make things incredibly difficult to do because we were as human beings more likely to do the wrong thing than the right thing and the fruits of that system, however frustrating they might be, is something we're seeing right now. >> tim, you mentioned something that basically most of the processes have been seen as tarnished except nixons, but you pointed out clear and convincing ...

February 24th, 1868, andrew johnson. december 19th, 1998, bill clinton. december 18th, 2019, donald trump. these are the three impeachments of american presidents. i wanted to put this into historical context. joining me are historians. gordon-reed is an author. tim maselli is with the richard nixon presidential library. jon meacham is a contributor,

Wisdom was if you cross the aisle you're politically dead. one of the things we have to look at is are there facts to support that? i've never run for office or faced voters so it's easy for me to say. when you look back on the people who decided to defy their party's basic conventional wisdom, you find it their political futures were not automatically pushed to the side. >> one of the things that i wonder, tim, about all of this, you know, you have this extraordinary cavalcade of administration officials, trump's ono figures alls saying, look, we were pressing the ukrainian government. we wer...

Author and higgs tostorian. he wrote "the impeachment report." tim, when we look at impeachment, we sort of think it doesn't seem to be working right now. when you go back and think about, you know, hillary clinton or andrew johnson, it's always seemed messy, broken , why? >> it's very hard to impeach a president. the gold standard is what happened in 1974. there you had clear and convincing evidence of the president's involvement in a criminal conspiracy. in addition, you had a lot of evidence of the president's abuse of power and even then the republican leadership was putting pressure on re...