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This is the carrot, they have to tell everything, the good, the bad, if they do that dirty work, they could try to get a reduced sentence. here, where you have this competing element of maybe you'll get a reduced sentence from the court. maybe you'll get a pardon from the president, everything's kind of turned on its head, and the prosecutors mentioned that in this hearing, they said this is one of the reasons they felt that manafort had been holding back, had not been telling the whole truth, he was trying to play his odds and trying to keep the possibility of a pardon open, which is dangerou...

With today, is exactly as you framed it. all of these lies that the government is pointing to. were they well crafted intentional lies that were meant to deceive the special counsel's office investigation, and derail it to some extent. or were these instances where somebody was misremembering something that had happened a long time ago. the government presented a pretty compelling case in this hearing as to why these were not just memory lapses. >> you also bored in on the word intelligence in this document. that that was perhaps the initial attractiveness toward doing a deal for manafort with...

Coming out of the mueller investigation about one of the big names, the big targets. former trump campaign chairman paul manafort. the revelations are coming from the transcript of a closed door court hearing that took place early they are week. kind of thing that's published all the time but not quite like this. during that hearing, mueller's prosecutors explained in detail why they're accusing manafort of lying to investigators while he was under a cooperation agreement with the feds. the document has more than its share of redactions, those lines blacked out to protect secrecy. even so, the...

Was going on. and that really really bothered and helped deteriorate the relationship between mueller and manafort, and gets us to where we are today. >> jeremy bash, we also saw mention of the p word, pardon. first time in my memory from any kind of mueller court appearance or filing, i'll put it on the screen, prosecutors put forward why manafort may have lied, telling the truth about an unnamed sensitive issue would have negative consequences in terms of the other motive that mr. manafort could have. which is to at least augment his chances for a pardon. and jeremy, when a pard season a par...

Could be used with respect to mr. kilimnik. jeremy, why would manafort want to be protecting a guy like kilimnik? >> well, previous to this, brian, manafort had been accused of, and, of course, stood trial and was convicted of financial impropriety, tax evasion, money laundering and failure to register as a foreign agent for the russian federation for his work on behalf of the ukrainian proputin elements. this hearing today, really unveiled that manafort could have also played a central role during the 2016 campaign as a go between between the trump inner circle and the russian federation. tha...