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Competing element of maybe you'll get a reduced sentence from the court, but then on the other hand maybe you'll get a pardon from the president, everything's kind of turned on its head, and the prosecutors mentioned that in this hearing, and they said this is one of the reasons they felt that manafort had been holding back, had not been telling the whole truth is because he was trying to play his odds and trying to keep the possibility of a pardon open, which is dangerous for a cooperating witness and absolutely infuriating for the government. >> michael schmidt, do we -- please engage in ram...

This is the carrot, they have to tell everything, the good, the bad, if they do that dirty work, they could try to get a reduced sentence. here, where you have this competing element of maybe you'll get a reduced sentence from the court. maybe you'll get a pardon from the president, everything's kind of turned on its head, and the prosecutors mentioned that in this hearing, they said this is one of the reasons they felt that manafort had been holding back, had not been telling the whole truth, he was trying to play his odds and trying to keep the possibility of a pardon open, which is dangerou...

Here, where you have this competing element of maybe you'll get a reduced sentence from the court. maybe you'll get a pardon from the president, everything's kind of turned on its head, and the prosecutors mentioned that in this hearing, they said this is one of the reasons they felt that manafort had been holding back, had not been telling the whole truth, he was trying to play his odds and trying to keep the possibility of a pardon open, which is dangerous for a cooperating witness, and absolutely infuriating for the government. >> michael schmidt, do we -- please engage in rampant speculati...

>> i do. i also think his game right now is to keep all of his options open. i think he tries to drag out this pretrial phase. i think he keeps giving the trump talk points to keep the pardon open. i think he loves to be in the spotlight and keep that going. i think for the moment he's raising money for his defense fund through tv and that's why he's going to keep it going. >> that's why people are saying if he doesn't go to jail, he would not be happy because he wants to attention, and he can use that possibly in a book or part of his story. do you disagree with that? >> well, i think all of ...

To lead to additional charges for roger stone in the conspiracy realm. but as far as this goes i don't think he will plea because he doesn't seem like that kind of guy, but he really ought to be looking for some sort of resolution. >> meaning stone? >> yes. he won't but he should. >> you said you won't think he will plead. didn't we hear that from michael cohen and other people, i'm not going to do it and all of a sudden oh, wait, what happened? do you think stone is cut from a different cloth? >> i do. i also think his game right now is to keep all of his options open. i think he tries to dra...