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i, of course, was there. i met a kid didn't do hardly anything. when i left, he said, dog, i'll take it from here. instead of learning how to shoot the lock off, you learn how to pick it. it's a training field for felons. >> larry: ver nell -- vernell, you agree with that, they come out smarter criminals? >> i think that it depends what you do with them while inside. that's why i say you'll find research has clearly identified that when you are exposing them to a cognitive behavioral model that you're going to find that you change the way they think about themselves, their personal and community experiences. i think judge mathis struck the nail on the head. that is what our society has created is, we've created these environments within our larger cities, and now it's spread to our suburbs where we are raising people up in a dysfunctional community. they have no jobs. where are all the liquor stores in these depressed communities. so therefore, these people

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