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When laws aren't being broken the obliteration of norms does now represent one of the gravest threats to our democracy. what do you think of what he had to say there? >> well, i do agree with president obama that democracy works when we are operating with kind of a shared set of facts and a shared set of norms, but what we've also seen in the past five years is an erosion of those facts and an erosion of those norms, and all of that was kind of building up to the big lie, which while it did not ensure the victory of the former president trump as was his aim, kind of raising the specter of a ri...

Adviser to move on.org. former chairman of the rnc, michael steele and joy reid, host of "a.m. joy" here on msnbc and author of the brand-new book "the man who sold america: trump and the unraveling of the american story," which bewill get to later in the hour. joy, i have always been concerned and i said it on the show before, going back to 2016 not one of the six republicans who ran against trump, not hillary clinton, ever figured out how address and combat the asymmetry running against someone like donald trump. >> absolutely. the campaign assumed the american voter could sort it out. you h...