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CNN Tonight

>> the case seems to hinge a lot on trump employee 4. the key conversation about the boss wants this deleted, that's just a verbal conversation. and so a lot is riding on the word of the trump employee 4. the case against former president trump is stronger. there's of course the recording where he says i could have declassified this and so forth. and there's a lot more evidence. >> sure. but i'm saying with these two walt nauta and de oliveira, can't they say i was moving boxes because i wanted to clear out the storage room, or the boss isn't donald trump? how strong a case against them? >> i think the case is -- is modest against them. it is not as strong as the case against former president trump. the issue is saying, well, i wasn't doing it for -- he was their boss. in the end there's not an intermediate boss referenced in the superseding indictment, so there would be a defense, but it ultimately dd not make sense to a jury. >> harry, i read your notes and you said this is the most

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CNN Tonight

hinge a lot on trump employee 4. the key conversation about the boss wants these deleted, that's just a verbal conversation. so a lot is riding on the word of trump employee 4. the case against former president trump is stronger. there's the recording where he says, i could have declassified this and so forth, and there's a lot more evidence. >> sure. but i'm saying with these two, walt nauta and carlos de oliveira, can't they fall on their sword and say, i was just cleaning up. i was moving boxes because i wanted to clear out the storage room. the boss isn't donald trump. how strong is the case against them? >> i think the case is -- is modest against them. it is not as strong as the case against former president trump. the issue is saying, well, i wasn't doing it for president trump. he was their boss in the end. there's not an intermediate boss referenced in the superseding indictment. there would be a defense, but it ultimately could just not make sense to a jury. >> harry, you said this is the most mob-like conduct you've

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The Rachel Maddow Show

when you set out to try to get your day in court here. did things go the way that you thought they would? were they harder than you thought they would be or were you more prepared for how they were going to go than you expected? how did it match up with your expectations and how you had prepared? >> i was ignorant. i had never sued anybody. i had never even been in a courtroom. it was totally -- but robby caplan, who i heard someone you might know say when the history of this era is written, there will be multiple chapters about robby caplan. she and this brilliant team of lawyers had me so prepared, had me unbelievably prepared. i went in because i was so ignorant, confident. it was like getting hit by a board when mr. tacopina did my cross examination but i really wasn't doing it for myself.

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The Rachel Maddow Show

she and this brilliant team of lawyers had miso prepared. had me unbelievably prepared. i went in because i was so ignorant, confident. it was like getting hit by board when mr. tacopina did my cross-examination. but i wasn't doing it for myself. i was doing it for the women in the country. and i -- i got very little sleep. [inaudible] every day was exciting. it's an incredible feeling to feel the waves across the country behind us. and at the end when i told what happened, i was heard, i was heard in federal court.

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The Rachel Maddow Show

written there'll be multiple chapters about robby kaplan. she and this brilliant team of lawyers had me so prepared, had me unbelievably prepared. i went in because i was so ignor want, confident. it was like getting hit by a board when mr. tacopina did my cross-examination, but i really wasn't doing it for myself. i was doing it for the women in the country, and i -- i got very little sleep. it get -- every day was exciting. oats an incredible feeling to feel the waves across the country behind us, and the end

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The Indictment of Donald Trump

the department of justice took over and issued him a subpoena so very nicely, i guess is debatable. but in this case it just obviously wrong. he also continued to spread the same election lies that he has talked about before the claim, he said before about millions of illegal votes. yeah. the millions of votes illegally stuffed into ballot boxes and all koran government cameras. obviously that is not true. i mean, what what more can we say about this? we've been dealing with this for two years now. it did not happen. there was a tiny smattering of fraud throughout the country that even many of trump's own former top officials , former attorney general bill barr, various campaign officials have concluded would not have changed the outcome. we have addressed this dozens, probably hundreds of times, he keeps saying it will keep saying it in perpetuity doesn't make it any more. correct daniel dale a lot more to get to we will daniel. thank q. joining the panel, now cnn political analyst new york

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The Indictment of Donald Trump

big event and get all this stuff and he's it. there's something about what's happening to me, that's very disturbing. that he's kind of slipped the noose even today, and it's somehow having the conversation. he wants to have a balance not to want to talk about. he's not talking about the country, not even talking about the case. he's just pulling people down to his own mirror world and i'm afraid it's going to be working. i think it's up to republicans to figure out how to get us out of the situation because this is not good. they don't know how republicans knew how to do that. i think that we would have seen it a long time ago. and i do think that that is a point that you're making. and as a point of this is making, you know, we hear a lot from people around ron desantis, for instance, that he's not changing how he's behaving based on donald trump. he's going to run his game. donald trump is doing what he's doing, and that's fine except that donald trump was carried live on fox news tonight. that doesn't happen that often anymore, and that tells you a lot about how the oxygen is getting subject and i don't think republicans no how to go with donald trump. i don't think

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The Indictment of Donald Trump

writing was could you please put another lock? on the door. we immediately complied. it's a lot different than the biden situation, isn't it? the next thing i know we were rated by many gun toting fbi agents. who took whatever they wanted, including my passports and medical records. everybody was in shock. nobody had ever heard of such a raid before. we can't even believe it. who would think that that could happen today? i immediately thought of the fourth amendment that protects against unreasonable search and seizure. but they did it anyway, because our justice system has become lawless. they're using it now, in addition to everything else to win elections. apparently they're not looking at me through the view of the non criminal presidential records act. they came up with a new one. this is a new one. and

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The Indictment of Donald Trump

for being backed by george soros when he criticizes the judge and the judge's daughter. is this just being pugilistic. just being a fighter. is this just being attacking? or does he actually want? um his supporters to go after these people, either rhetorically or even worse. or i hate to say the combination of both, you know, he's always trying to show that he's strong. it's an appearance of strength, and he thinks by attacking people, whether it's a judge or the judge's daughter, myself or anybody that this that this gives the appearance of strength. it doesn't it actually gives the appearance of ignorance and stupidity, but nobody is able to tell him to knock it off because donald trump doesn't care what anybody says what anybody thinks he's going to continue to run the show the way he wants, which is why he has this clown car of council right now representing

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The Indictment of Donald Trump

statutes that would make this a felony weren't even laid out clearly and so that people can really see what laws they're alleging that he broke. i think that's really puzzling to me because the public interest in this case is so high as a prosecutor, i think the legal underpinnings of all of this really does need to be rock solid. you know, i'm i'm not a lawyer. i can't say whether this is going to be a good case or bad case. will they win or will they lose? it's clearly not a slam dunk case at and it seems very clear that they have a lot of legal proving to do in the courtroom, and the trump team has a lot to challenge them on, you know, as we've been able to digest this and really sit with the actual indictment. i've been thinking a lot about the fact that we have to potentially differentiate between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law, the letter or the actual case. might be hard to prove. but what it's laying out, particularly in this statement,

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