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are now in disarray. my guest isjosef aschbacher, director general of the european space agency. is europe destined to be an also—ran in the space race? josef aschbacher, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. thank you for having me. let's start where i started in that introduction — your relationship with russia. it has exposed, has it not, the war with ukraine, the degree to which you've had to sever ties with the russian space agency? it's exposed a dangerous overreliance on cooperation with moscow? i mean, it is true that with the invasion of russia in ukraine, it was a wake up cal...

The rover down to the surface, and the rover itself, which is the hard piece, to drill into the mars surface and do all the science. so, there are four big elements. and out of those four, two, roughly, are dropping out — the rocket — the launch by russia, and the lander in particular. plus, in the other parts, there is some russian technology. of course, all this stops now. i've done the series analysis, what needs to be done? what are the options? what can be done in europe, and what cannot be done in europe so easily that means it needs to be developed newly, that means from scratch, in...