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Catastrophe for them. >> principal, you mean the amount they actually invested. >> correct. >> now, let's drill down to the one factual question that picard would have to prove. >> right. >> how does he claim wilpon knew that bernie madoff was a ponzi schemer? >> he says he should have known. >> based on what? >> based on a variety of factors starting with the fact that madoff paid steady, very steady, suspiciously steady returns for year after year after year. 10% to 12%. >> my bank pays me steady returns on my saving account. >> this is more than that. it was like 10% to 12%, which was not, ...

Returns on my saving account. >> this is more than that. it was like 10% to 12%, which was not, you know, doubling your money all the time but more than you'd get in any other risk-free investment. that's the starters. also, and here's where it gets very controversial, he says, picard says there were certain red flags, that there were warnings. now, i looked very deeply into this, and this was the heart of my story about fred wilpon. and frankly, i am sympathetic to wilpon on this score, that i didn't see going back into the history the red flags that fred and company knew or should have known...

It was like 10% to 12%, which was not, you know, doubling your money all the time but more than you'd get in any other risk-free investment. that's the starters. also, and here's where it gets very controversial, he says, picard says there were certain red flags, that there were warnings. now, i looked very deeply into this, and this was the heart of my story about fred wilpon. and frankly, i am sympathetic to wilpon on this score, that i didn't see going back into the history the red flags that fred and company knew or should have known that this was a ponzi scheme. you know, those of us who ...

>> the theory is that since the whole thing was fictional, the people who profited from it don't deserve to profit from it. >> let me stop you there. even if they didn't know. >> none of them knew. even if they didn't know. >> that's an assertion that will be challenged. >> correct. right. but this is where the story gets very interesting, is that he, the trustee, is not treating wilpon and company like all the other victims. if he was treating wilpon like the rest of them, wilpon would have to give back about $160 million, which he could do. >> how much does he want back? >> he wants a billio...

Back, because what picard is saying is that wilpon is not like all the other investors who were essentially innocent victims. what picard is saying is that wilpon and company were complicit, that they knew or should have known that madoff was running a ponzi scheme. so they don't have to give back their profits. they have to give back their principal, which would be a catastrophe for them. >> principal, you mean the amount they actually invested. >> correct. >> now, let's drill down to the one factual question that picard would have to prove. >> right. >> how does he claim wilpon knew that ber...