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Desensitized to it. they are numb to it. there's no outrage calling for senators to take action. and that, i think, has been the legal strategy that trump has played to all along knowing that it's very unlikely that there will be an indictment. that mueller will seek a formal grand jury indictment against him because of the longstanding doj policy that we've talked about. so this notion that it's the american people sitting as a jury and that the mounting lies, the question becomes whether at some point there's a tipping point where people understand if you are lied to repeatedly, and if you h...

>> and you even see it with this argument where it's gone from -- he didn't do it to, if he did it it's not breaking the law. so even the terms of argument from trump on air force one to trump now is different. now he's conseeding, yeah, so i paid her, but so what. so i think that having truth from the white house is an important on this one. >> i get the sense to the point about republicans that the shift may come if there is actually a shoe in the russia collusion question. that's when they may start to lose senators. i want to get your take on something rudy giuliani said this morning. take...

Unravel is when will or whether not the republicans kind of come to grips with the fact that this was going on the entire time. i would imagine the president didn't think he was going to win. and because he likes money, he kept trying to keep those relationships maybe in play, so that after the election, he could exploit them. so he's put himself into a terrible trap here. and it's nothing the mueller investigation has done to him. he's done it to himself, by playing both sides, trying to be both a profiteer and a competitive politician, he's, you know, had the worst-case scenario. he won the ...

Said, i won't comment on it. honestly, i don't think that's a fair question senator kennedy said when asked if he believes trump's explanation. here's orrin hatch earlier this week. >> i think the democrats will do anything to hurt this president, anything. >> this is the southern district of new york, the u.s. attorney that's making this allegation. >> you think he's a republican, do you? >> he's employed by the president. employed by this president. >> okay, but i -- i don't care. all i can say is he's doing a good job as president. >> he later said in a statement in part, i made comments ab...

>> and you believe that that's genuine? it's not out of convenience? >> yes. >> because the president called him a rat. >> the president called him a rat. i did put my own message up on twitter today that, let's get this straight, the president is the top law enforcement officer in the country. he calls somebody who tells the truth to the prosecutors a rat and someone who stonewalls prosecutors sympathetic. that sounds more like the rule of the mob than it does the rule of law under a president. so, going back to your question, michael, over a long period of time, convinced me that it was real...