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That if senator coburn supports a gang of six plan that raises net tax revenue, he would violate grover norquist's pledge. senator coburn is obviously ready for that fight. >> well, i think, which pledge is most important, david? is the pledge to uphold your oath to the constitution of the united states or a pledge from a special interest group, who claims to speak for all of american conservatives when, in fact, they really don't. >> joining me now, the founder and president of americans for tax reform, grover norquist. grover, thanks for joining me tonight. >> hey, lawrence, good to be with ...

So we haven't asked people until they formally run. i expect all of the republican candidates for president will sign the pledge. but let me back up. we have 100,000 donors to americans for tax reform. our position is no net tax increases on the overall tax burden. we do not support or oppose any particularly tax credit. one of the arguments that i've had with senator coburn is he wants to get rid of the ethanol tax credit, which is a left-wing effort to force people to use higher cost energy that eats up a lot of corn. it's a very stupid incentive or disincentive. we ought to get rid of it. w...

In the senate. neither body is going to be passing a tax increase in the next two years. and after the next presidential and senate elections, when we have a different senate, and one hopes that a pro-taxpayer president, we'll be able to get significant spending and tax relief. >> and what happens politically to someone who violates their pledge? you can mobilize against them in a republican primary, can't you? >> well, i think if you'd ask george herbert walker bush how his second term went, that was the first president who took the pledge and then broke it two years later and couldn't, after...

>> well, we're not talking about it. i think if you go back and look at the commission's report, what we were talking about is getting significant dynamic effects by taking away tax credits, lowering the tax rate, and having an economic increase that will actually increase the revenues to the federal government. we're not talking about raising tax rates at all. so if there's a net effect of tax revenue, that would be fine with me. i experienced that during reagan's period in 1986. >> that may not have sounded like a particularly bold response to you, but for a republican senator, nothing brave...

Is, "the government's power to control one's life derives from its power to tax. we believe that that power should be minimized." there are some republicans who have thought that, perhaps, perhaps, maybe, we should have raised taxes to pay for the iraq and afghanistan wars, or at least partially pay for them, but they would not dare say so, because that would violate a written pledge they had made to grover norquist. who presents every republican running for the house, the senate, or the white house with a pledge to sign, saying that he or she will never, ever support raising taxes in any way....