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Its power to tax. we believe that that power should be minimized." there are some republicans who have thought that, perhaps, perhaps, maybe, we should have raised taxes to pay for the iraq and afghanistan wars, or at least partially pay for them, but they would not dare say so, because that would violate a written pledge they had made to grover norquist. who presents every republican running for the house, the senate, or the white house with a pledge to sign, saying that he or she will never, ever support raising taxes in any way. including by cutting loopholes out of the tax code that might ...

Having an economic increase that will actually increase the revenues to the federal government. we're not talking about raising tax rates at all. so if there's a net effect of tax revenue, that would be fine with me. i experienced that during reagan's period in 1986. >> that may not have sounded like a particularly bold response to you, but for a republican senator, nothing braver has been said on television in this century. senator coburn just said that he's willing to violate a pledge he submitted in 2004 to a man i've called the most powerful man in america who does not sleep in the white h...

Was the biggest tax increase in your history, your worst nightmare. so we couldn't be more opposite on this. but i just wanted to get it out there that the bind that republicans are in, i don't think the public understands outside of washington politics how you have worked this subject for decades. you actually have signatures on documents, on a written pledge from senator coburn and other republican senators, virtually all of them, and most republicans in the house, if not all of them, saying that they will never vote for any increase in taxation, which you define as including the elimination...

They're not particularly happy to have their taxes raised. they want less spending. >> and grover, this is the single obsession concern of you and your organization. i just want to make it clear to the viewers that you don't -- i don't believe you have any interest in what happens on the spending side of government. meaning, if i were to say to you, oh, come on, grover, if we do this, we're not going to be able to fund medicare the way we would like to. that just isn't your concern. you just want taxes cut and cut and cut and cut? >> no. to the contrary. only if you take tax increases off the ...