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They ask you why you said what you said to less to her hoter h russians in the oval office, i would say, i said what i said. it's been on tv. what else is new? once he starts explaining, as has been pointed out, i think all the explanations either begin to look absolutely ridiculous or it would be lies. >> if he turns down interstate view, which is the cooperative version of doing this, as stuart says, the next stage is a subpoena to come to a grand jury where there is even more tension, in certain ways, a little more risk than the interview process, your lawyer can't be in the room. in the in...

Those things you're asking people to commit crimes. so the list that joy mentions, the question is was it real or fraud? was it fraud? that's a good reason people want to get far away from the process. >> harry, the process would have been had to be don mcgahn communicating with rod rosenstein telling him to fire the special prosecutor, and that actually raises the other possibility that is entertained at other parts in this story, is the president considering firing rod rosenstein, in fact, in order to get this done? >> right. exactly. or order rod rosenstein to fire mueller, everyone anticip...

Changed hands, that's what we'll see at some point that money or things of value changed hands. let's not forget in the context of all of this, the first original e-mail that don trump jr. got wasn't would you like to discuss a foreign power helping you, it assumed they were already helping them and said as part of our efforts to help you. now you put it together with all the things that trump has said and done, and this new reporting that shows he acted, he tried to do it and was blocked, and you have a stronger case for high crimes and misdemeanors. especially because the president cannot us...

He's done nothing wrong. but the president couldn't possibly know what bob mueller knows about the case. this is what we call a perjury trap. >> under no circumstances should he grand mr. mueller an interview. it's a suicide mission. it's a very clear perjury trap. >> even if mueller's not setting it up as a perjury trap, it still is one. >> i would hope that a fair-minded office of special counsel would approach it in a dutiful way consistent with precedent and it wouldn't be a mere perjury trap. >> joy reed, it turns out a perjury trap for donald trump is putting him under oath. >> having hi...

Mueller. now you have a very clear story with four sources and two newspapers backing this up, that the president was proposing to do something which i think is clearly unlawful. you can do lawful things in an unlawful way and arguably advances a conspiracy involving this administration. and this issue of the independence of the justice department's prosecutors, this has a history that goes back to john quincy adams. but donald doesn't know any of this, doesn't have any respect for law and he expects you to be loyal to him. this is in some ways not surprising. i think it's a good question to a...