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>> joy reed, it turns out a perjury trap for donald trump is putting him under oath. >> having him talk to robert mueller. the question i would have too and maybe ari has the answer to this. on the question of obstruction, does donald trump need to have succeeded in obstructing justice >> can you just attempt? >> right. doing something proactive to impede the investigation. let's say this guy quit my golf club, fire him. >> ongoing conspiracy to obstruct is enough even if some aspects aren't successful. if he could corden it off and say every time i tried, my people stopped it, i think that wo...

You, it assumed they were already helping them and said as part of our efforts to help you. now you put it together with all the things that trump has said and done, and this new reporting that shows he acted, he tried to do it and was blocked, and you have a stronger case for high crimes and misdemeanors. especially because the president cannot use his pardon power to prevent impeachment. >> i want to get our legal experts on a question i've been wondering about for months now. first i want to show the video of me asking the questions of one of the former watergate prosecutors, jill wine-bank...

Respect for it but seems to delight in it and welcome it and seek it. those are the questions that i think tonight are on display. we learned about two potential saturday night massacres. >> that's right. >> i wonder what's going through the mind of one paul ryan, because at some point in what you just said ari is we don't know what the congress thinks about it. up till now paul ryan has been nothing but a toady, a sup lecant to trump. he's allowed every deck. degradation of the presidency. will paul ryan, if donald trump refuses the lawful subpoena, refuses to respond to the special counsel...

>> what is that concern, that he'll tell the truth? that the truth will actually be criminal? >> the concern is people say -- well, in nixon there were tapes. that's different. as joy and you have alluded to, there were tapes here, too. lester holt made them. there were tapes in public of someone saying i fired him over russia. >> i think stuart has the idea of how you handle the lester holt tape. if you're trump, you say, it speaks for yourself. whatever question you're asked, yust look at the tape, it speaks for itself. >> the problem is, even if you put aside the russia stuff, which is a lo...

I think ari made a point, there's a question of whether donald trump is ignorant or whether he's corrupt. the more information you get is corrupt. you can't be that ignorant if you're going beyond the russia investigation and saying we had disputes over fees at my golf club. he's looking for any reason to dis get rid of this guy. we have don mcgahn, who's not a hero, i agree. it's not as if he wasn't trying to get jeff sessions not to recuse himself. remember don mcgahn was part of that, too. so you have donald trump trying to assemble around himself a protection force. and feel like all these...