Transcripts For ALJAZ Dambisa Moyo 20240712

A chokehold are not being used for any other type of unauthorized force they have a duty to report it immediately even if theyre on scene they need to pick up the radio the phone and report it they also have a duty to intervene if they do not and they witness unauthorized force they say nothing dont report it they could be punished on par with someone who has actually use that an authorized force the Minnesota Department of human rights is continuing its investigation into the department on the legal front on monday 44 year old children a former Minneapolis Police officer who kneeled on george whites neck will make his 1st Court Appearance it will be a preliminary hearing we are told that jovan has already been moved to another correctional facility due to concerns over his safety of people across the world have also gathered to express their anger over George Floyds death in the u. K. Demonstrators running to denounce institutional racism thousands gathered in london with the small number of protesters clashing with police. Libyas u. N. Recognize government has launched an offensive to reclaim the strategic city of stronghold of warlord who before have 2 forces the government also rejected a Cease Fire Initiative posed by have to off the talks in egypt but im as is the founder and director of the subject institutes libyas fast think tank he said is if i have to leave the ship could be in jeopardy. The cheerless little trick is how close they are taking and i think they would be mistaken to think that theres a problem now but until they go shit because there is a position of weakness and theyre in a position of strength the real question is how russia and have the u. A. E. Completely abandoned their project in libya or have they just moved on and perhaps moved on to another contender the head of the parliament and its then that we are going to solar is eventually kind of that its very unclear yet because there is much wards of what was. The old presence in central libya in the southwest of libya as well as in the southeast and thats a long war and i think it could be a question of perhaps preservation of the Russian Forces that are now deployed in central libya or preservation of other parts of Eastern Libya through the u. A. E. And it further but really the question of whether or not after survives is not really an answer to himself its an answer whether or not his batteries of oil and so while there but you know and thats really the story of libya and most of those issues today at least up its kind of being measured outside and it was turkish as if there was the really good the g. L. A. The wind Lebanese Security forces have fired tear gas at n. T. Government protesters in beirut they were demonstrating against the economic crisis around 30 percent of population are out of work. Hundreds of people in israel have protested against the governments plan to annex parts of the occupied west bank jewish and arab Rights Groups join the demonstrations planned to see about 30 percent of Palestinian Land become part of israel from any july the United Nations recognizes the occupied west bank as palestinian under international law. India has recorded its highs daily tyla a tally of corona virus infections as confirmed cases exceed 230008 has a 6 highest number world wide the government has been gradually easing lock down restrictions a. P. To revive the economy. Brazils Health Ministry has taken down a website that tracks the corona Virus Outbreak by region and stopped reporting the total number of cases president jaya bosn are defended the decision saying the data did not reflect the moment the country was in a state Health Secretary has have denounced the move us or thorough tarion inhumane and ethical you know stay with headlines got more news here on aljazeera after head to head. From the bronx at vote in britain thanks. To the election of dont. Think you will be our last. People around the world to get. To the place stream. So what is behind the we surprised him populism authoritarianism. My guest tonight is an economist who blames the political establishment in her new book edge of chaos why democracy is failing to deliver Economic Growth and how to fix it she believes democracy is in crisis and some pretty controversial suggestions for how to save. And ive come to the oxford union to go head to head with economist. Why she seems to blame democracy for Economic Growth and whether to save democracy by giving some voters more power and influence and others could end up instead. Ill be joined by. Author of the production of money and one of only a handful of economists who correctly predicted the financial crisis jamie whyte director of research at the institute of Economic Affairs. And they form a new zealand politician and philosophy electra and jason and im for apologist at the London School of economics and author of the divide a brief guide to Global Inequality and its solution. Maybe gentlemen please welcome. Thank. You but they know where you would rob them help you with foreign aid was actually very poor hes a former Goldman Sachs banker so. Welcome to. One of the central premises of your book is that the popular discontent that we see across the west right now for example the brics vote the election of donald trump the rise of populist parties is driven by the failure of governments to deliver Economic Growth yet many experts pollsters people whove studied this stuff would say bricks it wasnt driven by economics trump wasnt elected by the poor or the left behind its a complete myth it had much more to do with culture and identity issues which you dont really address in the book well i dont think. That i completed here at oxford you know are a while ago in economics and so i thought there might see these issues a challenge im through that lens im not dismissing that there might be other and you know aspects and ill leave that to people who are focused on those areas to to make the case for that i am concerned about the economics and we do know that real wages have come down virtually every developed country over the past 30 years social mobility has declined the income inequality has widened and so the threat of a lack of participation in the neighborhoods to people be simply given up on and work all these aspects have created things like trump and bricks it. Get that thats your prism and thats your specialism doesnt make it correct the majority of americans earning less than 50000. 00 a year voted for Hillary Clinton not donald trump when my daughters in the rust belt states who said the economy is the most important issue for the country went with hillary on bricks in income class were not predictors of vote in fact views of multiculturalism of feminism the Death Penalty was actually a greater predictor of peoples views on break so let me let me clarify a couple of things so 1st of all you know a lot of what youve just said certainly culture issues around immigration which have been basically. Sort of put forward as the main argument for breaks it and 4 for the rise of trump and populism more generally across europe to me are masking a more fundamental problem which still has its roots in economics if people feel that their lives are improving their future generations lives are improving i would argue that we would see much more stability we have seen much more stability in those periods a good job than donald trump also one of the last from rich people the need to hold on people hold on the wall now if you hold it ill give you a juggler ill give you a start of a wages ill give you a statistic that illustrates the story as you were aware the the general high level numbers that hillary won the popular vote by 3000000 if you take out the new york im not about the state just the metropolitan city of new york and if you take out the metropolitan city of los angeles not california donald trump won the vote by over 3000000 votes that is how split this country is people in new york city and in los angeles are essentially very liberal tend to be much more wealthy and tend to be deriving their welfare and in terms of their Living Standards from a Global Society and unlike you perhaps i take the view is no point in me making arguments that i have no basis in fact or knowledge to make you seem to treat growth as some sort of magic bullet and yet if you look at some of the biggest problems facing the world today problems you recognize in the book income inequality Climate Change more and more Economic Growth is not only fail to solve those problems many would argue experts would say it is in fact a driver of those very same problems would you accept i would not and i would not accept it because i think one of the key points that people tend to miss is not that we have not gained from a model where we have depended on growth we have failed to redistribute that growth in a way that actually enhances the lives of many people around the world if i think specifically of some of the examples of this there are many policies today that have have short term gains particularly western societies but have very deep long term problematic consequences. Given. Well example trade protectionism the fact that the United States through farm subsidies and europe through the common culture policy have locked out the goods that are produced in places like africa and south america have essentially created an environment where we have not only created more and more impoverished people but weve also created a fed into issues of political instability im saying deal with the real world not your aspiration noble aspiration which is occidental growth the arks family border every january theyre putting out reports and saying the world is growing we know that i think the estimate for this year is that the 8 wealthiest people in the world have more wealth than the bottom so were in agreement that rose doesnt inequality invite the increase i was very clear i said that the point is not about growth the fact is that how we do redistribute that growth and on Climate Change you talk about the edge of chaos but what about Climate Chaos is an irresponsible to talk about Growth Growth growth given experts like Kevin Anderson the center for Climate Change research of said continuing with Economic Growth over the coming 2 decades is incompatible with meeting our International Obligations of Climate Change well theres a whole literature which obviously havent cited or perhaps youve not seen which is focused specifically on what we call green growth theres massive discussion around this and in fact you talk about china india china is quite a leader head in terms of trying to near 0 we of course there have you been there recently beijing has more solar panels than most of the other countries and they are i mean i could go uns Environmental Protection index made formulated by a University Puts china a 120 out of 180 countries in the world listen china is the 2nd largest economy in g. D. P. Terms its ranked near number 100. 00 per capita incomes terms this is one of the poorest countries on that metric the notion that somehow they should wake up and they have an economy thats functioning at the highest levels is absurd the United States even in the last 20 years theyve had cities where theres been mass pollution just flint makes michigan is not 20 years ago where they were polluted water and the notion that youre putting all this pressure on china which is still a nascent economy in many respects. Its to me as 40 russia you cited china things to us i mean greatest im going to agree. You dont advocate for green growth i sure do im sure do many times as climate having read my book just how my view on it might not only raise the question i gather that was you may have just wanted to limit the years lets have a test lets have a test on your book as a whole section ive mentioned multiple times and there are 4 times the words Climate Change appear in this 200 multiple bit 4 times what pages out of 3 that i can give you the very title of its only 4 so all im saying is that its great please do go home to me now tell me now though yes what is your position on growth and climate and summarized as innocent as well as i said i think the framing is around green we have 90 percent of the worlds population that lives in the emerging markets 90 percent of those people including myself who comes from africa have been assured have been encouraged that we can live like americans live like british people you if you decide you want to go and put the genie back in the bottle good luck you want to go to the panel on this just before i do want one last question i must ask this to you you working Goldman Sachs back in 2008 when. Their 10 year you were there in 2000 at the time of the financial crash the Goldman Sachs helped cause which killed growth many more are you really the right person to be writing a book about growth given the association with Goldman Sachs i dont understand the connection the question is if you work at it institution youre part of the institution that its so much damage to the Global Economy and then you come on the set is a solution for growth the biggest hit to growth came from the banks and from Goldman Sachs you know what you know what youre exhibiting is a pure lack of understanding of how the Global Economy works. So let me just let me if i mean its a little risky. For you know many governments not just this government in this country but also governments in the United States is a good example of this they have a clear and stated policy of cold housing for this is a policy where they deliberately encourage ever. To own a house it doesnt matter what your income is and your ability this is your get to go down and say im not to become was to blame were all to blame because we essentially many men have a special role to play i think to put a very simple question just Goldman Sachs have a special role to play the play to 5000000000. 00 for him and said we need institutions pay fines im trying to help you become a bit more educated in the severe. So to be understanding im not just saying that we all have taken responsibility and you want me to give you a one liner i want to go solo thats only so much of a social responsibility you know theres no special responsibility ok lets go to the panel question. To join this very interesting discussion im joined by. The author of the production of money one of a handful of economists the newspapers often the ones to correctly predict the financial crisis what do you when you see hear the arguments about the importance of growth as presented by them these are both here and in the book what you have. To be so you said government should be making formulating Public Policy policy requires boundaries capital hate Goldman Sachs hates these it wants to go where it wants to go where can it make the biggest profits and you are advocating essentially a globalized economy where wont matter where governments wont matter where Public Policy will not have an effect because markets will decide and i find that that is a really deep hypocrisy in that youre trying youre on the one hand trying to blame governments on the other hand you are mostly in favor of markets making the most important decisions that affect millions of people across the world but yes id like to respond so what is absolutely clear is that i am a supporter of this idea of globalization the movement of trade in goods and Services Movement of capital but also the movement of people immigrant as an immigrant however however we know that what is defined and explained in textbooks does not actually happen in real life because Public Policy and imperatives and tradeoffs and. Real politic the fact that especially democratic governments want to win elections means that these things in law apply in real life jamie whites with us whos director of research at instead of Economic Affairs the i also a former new zealand politician and philosophy lecturer david after mr david out of one of britains great naturalists says anyone who thinks you can have infinite growth in a final environment is either a madman or an economist with the. Internet of course not you cant have it but i really couldnt agree more with them this will be the era of globalization imperfect as it being has seen. Billions of people lifted from poverty its really been the most astonishing period of success in Human History in 1840 percent of the worlds population lived on todays money 2. 00 a day or less today its about 8 percent i think and its coming down that is a fantastic achievement which we should be celebrating all these funny little i mean i find it astonishing that people hostile towards the processes that have brought about what is close to a miracle ok let me bring in let me just bring in jason nickels waiting very patiently there anthropologist of the London School of economics and author of the divide a brief guide to Global Inequality and its solutions jason im interested in the climate because dumb people are very forcefully rejected the idea that there is a clash there you can focus on green growth what do you think about that through its interesting because the only reports that were published by International Situations on green growth were done in 2012 for the u. N. Summit sustainability with interesting is that they did not cite any substantial models to justify this idea that rich economies can manage to grow while at the same time massively reducing material consumption of emissions down to the carbon budget or to be celsius since then fortunately there have been a number of key studies which i write a lot about and literally every single one of the models that has been developed shows that that green growth is not a thing its literally physically impossible to have exponential growth of the same time as reducing material consumptions and reducing emissions fast enough to stay within the 2 degrees celsius carbon budget and to me its fundamentally irresponsible to have a book out there promoting endless growth in rich nations where its not necessary in the face of all the research we have about planetary boundaries ok why who is promoted in this group in developed countries thats not my book i dont know whose book that it is but its very clear its very clear in your book that you make it would be absurd and i mean im not in your book you talk about the United States talking about nations like you can talk about britain talking about trying to say these people are upset because theres not enough growth youre trying to say what you need to know what youve got im here and i went into every building. Just saying i want to be here to defend myself. Here. And i dont worry about the United States growing at 3 percent i worry about our emerging countries i talk about this very explicitly about emerging countries growing below 7 percent you need to grow at least 7 percent double per capita incomes in one generation im desperately worried when south africa russia brazil are growing a 12 percent i am worried that india is growing 45 percent us and you also all of america in the u. K. Are there as well to call their own way only to the extent that Public Policy is this is very right about Global Warming on the show going to right on mr workaholic policy ok the most provocative chapter of your book thats got the most attention of the reviews and people read it so far is a chapter 7 which is called blueprint for a new democracy you talk about various proposals transform and you can you quote you say quote radical reform of democracy is needed to save it from decay one of your most contentious proposals is to have voters in the west pasta test a knowledge test a civics test in order to gain the right to vote surely you must see how tests of that kind could be deployed probably would be deployed to disenfranchise paul or those with less access to education minority communities absolutely and i talk about that i mean obviously i am black obviously im a woman an obvious stem from africa if i were to proport and to support types of regimes or systems that actually do not allow people to vote based on a whole list of adjectives race gender wealth Land Ownership id be the 1st person to be disenfranchised crazy and ive been accused of being crazy im not that crazy to suggest that i should not be allowed to vote you and tell you to be just to be clear as immigrants im sure there are many immigrants in this room they will tell you if you want to be a citizen in this country you want to be citizen in essence you have to pass the test it is already the case so i dont know if people arent aware of this and it doesnt matter it doesnt tell us that you only try to eliminate my argument i said it doesnt matter what your income or your origin or your race or gender is when youre an immigrant that shows up. In these countries you have to take a test all im suggesting is the test is designed to it to reward people for engagement you mentioned reward many people would say voting is a right not a reward arent you dont think i can and a lot of and 2nd percent Participation Rates doesnt mean a lot are 2 or 3 percent. Across the average across europe in the United States 50 percent 30 percent are people who are low income we do not want that situation the idea is and you make it harder for them to hold on hold on a while you dont you dont understand the book once again i dont understand because the argument was very stern as well but yeah you probably know. The. Gist of this deal with the discrimination but you say youre a black woman from africa is that why propose a test when in the us deep south literacy test which explicitly used to disenfranchise black because once again youre not youre not appreciating what im trying to do which of which there are 2 goals number one we want to increase Participation Rate we want to ensure that the ideal of one man one vote which is essentially the mantra that everybodys been told for many years about labor democracy we want that to hold as many people must vote but we also want to make sure that the people who are voting have some good knowledge of what exactly were both voting on the day after break that im sure many people know this apparently the most googled term is was what is bricks or what is. Well it may be it may be but it is you know what in a world of fake news even urban legends become fact and i think that whatever the case well you know world of news. Because they are fact i dont mean they become true what i mean is that it goes around as you said urban legend start quoted like myself and i was very clear. I dont know it to be untrue do you know it to be untrue with certainty yes so you google did a study of 1000 people. Youre going to extrapolate from a 1000 people to all of the people you know ok lets all be over the brink so thats sort of why dont you start with one of the questions the point of the matter is. I was trying to explain to you that the book is designed to target 2 things yes Participation Rates and to ensure that we have a knowledge of god across the lets deal with the more controversial propose you say that dont just people should pass a test the people who are more qualified or more knowledgeable should have more vote or more influence you say quote 3 tiers of voters the unqualified the standard qualified voter and the highly qualified voter in the world of bricks and trump and populism in the far right you really think giving some people more votes than others based on education will stop populism or help populist ok so let me take a step back and explain exactly what this chapter 7 is doing chapter 7 offers 10 proposals these proposals are not supposed to be taken in wholesale because the country sent to Different Levels of democracy but also very importantly they all have some precedent somewhere in the world when the world so youre picking on a perspective a point around this question of ranking voters that already exist already in the United States in the Democratic Party superdelegates have a bigger weight in switzerland there is a Massive Movement by the Young Parliament there to actually increase the participation in fact the weight of young people between 18 and 40 so that double the weight of you over the next people will go crazy if certain people get more power more votes than them based on their educational qualifications you know you think it will increase or not listening i nobody said anything about education when they get a test is based on participation not on education youre taking sentences out that i have a broader context of imagery to in context preach to a woman waiting could also be tied to ones professional qualifications such as certificate as a doctor teacher lawyer Employment Status level of Educational Attainment on the assumption that excelling in these domains makes one more likely to make well informed choices in the voting and once again im thinking that i am ex blaming if you actually read the paragraph before that youll see that i was essentially saying here is how the argument goes the argument would be then you could have votes based on education and if you read the part after that. I quickly dispel that ok lets go to our panel and you are eager to come in where i want to just to just remind the so why we had the french revolution and why thomas paine read his book the rights of man and what mary wilsons quaff wrote the vindication of the rights of women but i think i found the book disappointing in that it was show its true that Participation Rates have fallen but i think the question to be asked is why have Participation Rates for it and thats not asked in the book instead youre trying to tell patronize the public tell them that then they havent got it right and they need to be tested and trained in order to vote instead of asking why theyre not participate in the not participating because they find that markets invisible im accountable remote markets are making decisions that affect their livelihoods jamie shaking his hand its why there is they dont to be diverted by this from the idea that markets make decisions and people make decisions i think that there is a problem with ignorance since each vote has very little influence on the outcome of the election its not worth investing a lot of time and effort to get the the knowledge you would need to be informed voters and i think its very interesting there are lots of people come up with ideas about how to deal with this im not actually all that keen on your specific ones not all of them but i think its a really worthy area of inquiry and we dont want this kind of hysterical reaction to any proposal that its undemocratic or all democratic systems have undemocratic elements in them otherwise they wouldnt function at all i think weve got way too much democracy you know in the sense that far too many decisions are collectivized and theyre made by people ill informed and its wonderful to see somebody trying to engage with these issues i went down sir to night obviously jason we have too much democracy jamie says there are. So i actually think youve done yourself a disservice to be so because your last chapter is full of these interesting proposals about gerrymandering about media regulation etc etc but then you give this kind of absurd because. About where the votes are which overshadows all of that and no ones talking about any of your actual good reforms so i think she probably wants a position and then talk about the other. Who will have heard about gerrymandering on Campaign Finance i mean what i want to be inoffensive and i want to make when i want to make yours i think the biggest issues about democracy you actually fail to address at all and that is this if were talking about the Global Economy we have to look at the institutions that are governing Global Economic policy like the world bank and the i. M. F. Which were voting power is monopolized by the u. S. And for the rich nations where the global south which has 85 percent of the worlds population has less than 50 percent of the vote on crucial decisions on macro to see the effect that i written extensively about this my book dead aid was specifically targeting International Institutions and the fact that the put the policy making decisions were centralized at a particular particular place where im very much to be moved from from recipient countries you say in the book you re critical of professional politicians as are many people and you talk about how to raise the standard of people in Public Office that they should have experience outside of politics of real world jobs how do you feel about the president of the United States did the electing a c. E. O. Billionaire make america more stable less corrupt and so i dont necessarily like the way the president talks about women and fact i dont like the way talks about women that i tol i dont like a whole host of other things but all i was 3 is the American Economy is functioning this getting stock market highs all the time the Unemployment Rate not just for the average of the society but also for minority groups is that all time lows there are some big concerns that theyre dealing with but we all have to accept that americans have made enormous sacrifices and unfortunately until european governments start to take more responsibility for what they have to pay and more generally we start to feel a bit sympathetic for what is happened to that an economy and that country i think were being a bit too simplistic ok on that note were going to take a pause join us for part 2 of a very lively discussion here with. Were going to talk about china Democracy Development and were going to hear from a very patient audience here in the oxford union after the break. Well im half scottish and half lebanese so diversity is really important to me and aljazeera is the most diverse place i have ever worked we have so many different nationalities and this is a nice group together in this one Nice Organization and this diversity of perspectives hes reflected in our coverage giving a more accurate representation of the world we reported on and thats a key strength of al jazeera. More. Forward. I dont know clark in doha the top stories here on aljazeera tens of thousands of people have gathered in washington d. C. To make their voices heard of a Police Brutality in the United States a largely peaceful demonstration is thought to be the steve biggest since rallies began of the death of george florida minneapolis 82. 00 weeks. People across the world have also gathered to express that anger over floyds death in the u. K. Demonstrators rallied to denounce institutional racism thousands gathered in london with a small number of protesters clashing with police near downing street where the Prime Minister lives libyas un recognized government has launched an offensive to reclaim the strategic city of sets a stronghold of the warlord lever have to force the government also rejected a cease fire additions have proposed by have to off to talks in egypt well deserved melich traina is on a highway leading to its with more on the governments offensive. The words. Here tell me that they want to continue on after still 30 is very strategic it is based in the central libya. But if this comes after forces that position themselves there are some say to keep opposition in power of position in impossible negotiations this will be a major step back after have to have lost several cities in western libya to this earth will be a major setback in any possible peace talks in the future Lebanese Security forces have fired tear gas at antigovernment protesters in beirut stay with demonstration against the economic crisis around 30 percent of the population. Hundreds of people in israel have protested against the governments plan to annex parts of the occupied west bank jewish and arab Rights Groups join the demonstrations plans and see about 30 percent of Palestinian Land become part of israel from early july the United Nations recognizes the occupied west bank as palestinian territory under international law. India has recalled it is highest daily tally of corona virus infections as confirmed cases exceed 230008 has a 6 highest number worldwide the government has been gradually easing lock down restrictions hoping to revive the economy more shopping malls restaurants and places of worship a jew to reopen from monday. Headlines got more now with head to head. Thank you but to head to head on aljazeera english im here in the oxford union with best selling author economist shes got a new book out the edge of chaos. What i didnt get reading your book is that you heap praise on liberal democracy on capitalism you say you want to save it from some of the problems that it undoubtedly faces market but then you also are full of praise on china and you talk about how quote Economic Growth is a prerequisite for democracy not the other way around so is democracy im wondering something you think that gets in the way of growth and prosperity. So its a brilliant question that ive talked about theres a lot of fantastic research out about this because ultimately we want a democracy that functions and survives. Which is he was a professor in the United States talks about this is about a model that predicts how long democracy will survive based on the per capita incomes in a country and its arguments very which i subscribe to this very basic which is that if you dont have a middle class that actually is participating in the in the process that voting then you end up with with a very narrow set of voters and that is a system we dont want to support we want to have a system where the population is a Critical Mass to hold the government accountable and theyve argued in previous work my book dated for example talked about the failure of democracy in africa precisely because of this point our governments very rationally are able to Pay Attention to our foreign aid because they dont have to rely on the Critical Mass at home and so there are there is i believe a very clear correlation so i know you dont like simplistic questions but are you saying yes we clear the so the chinese model the undemocratic authoritarian model is better for growth for the economy than a liberal democratic model at this moment in our history ok so once again i do have to explain theyre theyre essentially youre comparing apples and oranges the proverbial apples and oranges these are 2 very different ideological systems western ideology puts the individual as paramount the most important entity is the individual chinas model is based on prioritizing society the entity of society as the most important entity the reason this import is this is critically important is that there are enormous social costs from a model where you have an individual as paramount many of those costs weve kind of swept under under the rug population growth so the idea that i can have as many children as i want thats great thats my freedom thats my right im all impinging on nobodys right in theory but in practice we know issues of Climate Change issues of. Green growth and trade offs around growth but also in terms of health care there are many ways in which this idea of i can do whatever i like actually does impinge on societys ability to grow and transform the chinese model is not at the end of the day the only model and the best model because it also has its own costs but this is the trade off that were dealing with a little twisted in little human rights abuses its a dictatorship well china is also the largest foreign lender to the United States and so for all objects and perhaps as well if youre sitting on my right im just saying i guess im just saying that you should not exist to be very big if youre getting into germany is very clear let me go very quickly let me well larry larry if you care for about how 1st of all we can go into history and talk about suffrage 971 was the 1st time that in switzerland women had the right to vote we can talk about the Civil Rights Movement which is only in the 1960 s. In the United States so thats not all get hot and bothered about where china is china is on a path it does have to do a lot of work in its democratic process its already underway in many democratic on the way most people say its going the other direction. First for law 1st of all if you go to china and spend time there which i have there have democratic elections at the may or level there is innovation already happening in that political system and i would just really observe to into law youve met with a vision here that is allowed i think its very this is this is the problem i want to avoid because we are very good at spending time talking about countries that are blatantly nondemocratic when actually this book and i think where the focus really needs to be and where the problems have come just in terms of the rights of populism and also the financial crisis these are in the west that solve the problem tell me your focus was of the worst it was the developing world yes it is ultimately because Public Policy comes from the west so you talk about you know not giving the west a pause most of the guests on the show actually many of them have been from western governments are holding to account but when you say china is masterfully executing a carefully choreographed plan for growth which is largely attributable to its political system it does sound like youre endorsing the political system which is a terrific dictatorship im merely saying we cannot pretend that over 300000000 people have been moved out of poverty in 30 years and. The bottom line is that has been done and no other country in history or prehistory has ever been able to do what the chinese have done i dont think we should spend a lot of time pointing fingers at china you know physician heal thyself position is our economies and i know political is going about it in the west i get your call i said i said our is a fundamentally and our political economy city economies and put if you let me finish economies and political environment are under siege right now they are voting in the u. K. In the us in the us yes. Ill give you we have a Senior Leader we have is about to have a big critic will be the last receiver while were on the train your level dont lose yourself voter Participation Rates are low number one number 2 money money has seeped into the polygamy this is a bizarre argument thats all were jumping on well that then you have action all well and good vote away then because i must use my me money money has seeped into the political process ok 158 well its agree with everything youre saying im saying offering were going to show you that im offering a perspective thats focused on our own democracies where we have the opulence them we have a gala dinner and then i also have a job. Weve got hung garion weve got a hunger in Prime Minister or band talking about terry exactly hand russia one which isnt 40 percent of the energy into this country but this is class a result of those you say because of something you wrote youre a very influential woman your best selling author the reason we invited you on the show your millions of dollars in social media when you say chinas contemporary economic success is largely attributable to its political system is that now some might say thats a response to because it sounds like youre saying thats the system you need for growth is a good system let me also plain what i think the virtues of that system are that system is a long term system we have base from the mental schism between the long Term Economic challenges and headwinds that the Global Economy is facing led by developed countries things like debt except productivity declines versus the short termism imbedded in the electoral process in the United States of elections every 2 years this is incredibly destructive and creates this mismatch between long Term Economic challenges and. Short termism the political system the chinese model doesnt have to deal with that theyre not seduced by todays voter or they dont need to seduce todays voter in order to remain in often Political Office ok lets go to our panel jason pickel is an anthropologist a long school of economics when you hear me talk about china in that way does that make sense to long term ism. From this argument very frustrating and the reason is because the book is basically about the value of liberal free markets and you say that we need we need more of them but then you go into detail about how you know you admire china or the new deal or u. S. Its exactly the opposite a common ideology so with the words actually do you follow this i mean its quite confusing universally true. So i think its pretty obvious because the new what you describe the new deal manhattan institute. Sort of Manhattan Project china what they have in common they have the government incredibly Important Role not a governmental Big Government not seduced by short term voters every 2 years or every electoral cycle that is where the common things they are perhaps not an allocation decisions are based on long term thinking long term Planning Issues which focus on future generations and actually targeted the wrong enemy its not its not democracy thats a problem because again the new deal happened in a Democratic Society so the market is sort of its not democracy thats part of the problem is here is free market capitalism which is short term assist and so the. Reason i have 10 very near 10 very clear problems with democracy we dont and fortune dont have the time for me to go through with them the notion that democracy is not a problem is mad its crazy were looking at across europe right now weve got masses of populism. A whole host of fear my hope is were here at the moment ideology you actually support and im going to some 1st of all im going ive never got a story i didnt have to anyway but can i just because that is at the crux of the matter hes just asked the question i want to know what ideological model she supports i am not an idealogue let me be absolutely clear i was. No no no i hear you i say none of your ideological i mean he rightly pointed out that im not ideological obviously a lot of the line is that they are definitely benefits and merit from the captain and western system they are also very clear benefits from china jamie democracy is a problem not a problem when it comes to Economic Growth where do you stand on that debate well i one of the 1st agree with the basic position that democracy isnt required precursor of Economic Growth and in fact if you look at the Economic Growth that occurred in the United States and britain in the 19th century which was basically founded on that institution such as private property in the rule of law and so on those institutions got came into place in the british legal system prior to anything that we would today call democracy and then democracy came later so the basic point i think holds whats going on in china is indeed completely different and that isnt a rule of law liberal democracy type system but i think the main point is its see that democracy is not required because the end indeed cant get in the way for the kinds of reasons that debases pointed out that it instead of setting up the institutions required for a stable and developing economy you get kind of. Politicians doing deals with the electorate in a certain sense of the short term in ways that are destructive. But by the way one said that i am an ideologue. I didnt say that the most popular president of all time was received felt and that was because employment was high because people had jobs people had decent incomes and they had Public Services and they loved that and they participated and they voted what we have had since 971 and liberalization near liberalism is a people have found themselves becoming disempowered because there are forces beyond their control beyond the control of the governments of parliaments run fashionable its because parliaments dont make the decisions anymore where you stand on china is a Political Economic model where the of its a nation where its a thought authoritarian its socialist communist people are educated the people are how is that like many governments in africa that people have cared for and the markets manage but theres a lot of social unrest which is repressed brutally by the government i think its not very surprising that were looking very fondly back in the 1930 s. Where actually the Civil Rights Movement was just gaining momentum in the United States and yeah its all well and good to remember those good old days but guess what people like me were not even allowed to vote at that time so i mean it might be if might it might already be in here and yeah you said it not i so there are some significant weaknesses in the democratic process this is absolutely the case i mean the notion that we can sit here take Foreign Direct Investment from china trade with china have china lend our government enormous amount of money and then turn around and say well this is the big bad wolf and we dont want to actually deal with them i think its perfectly ok lets go to our audience here in the oxford union. Raise your hands wait for the mark for him to come to you. Thanks very much if i can go back to the question around the way to devoting. The south africa post apartheid south African Constitutional Court said that the vote of every and each and every citizen is a badge of dignity and of person it quite literally says that everyone. Counts no given the voting is not just an instrumental exercise its also an exercise in personal self was saying that some people can vote others can vote and was small isnt that just fundamentally offensive well you know i have a sense of what you mean by offensive i mean im not really interested in emotional reactions im more interested in something thats quite sustainable this is about engagement and how it is that we expect citizens to engage in the process i think that we need to explore everything i was very clear that i do not think that this type of with voting works in a general election i consider myself pretty well read and pretty engaged and quite interested in whats going on in the world but i would not argue that i actually know what the best use or what the best decisions around Health Care System should be and i do believe that if i spoke to doctors nurses or people who work in the medical facilities theyll be better able to tell me dummies of doctors. I know which are going to say. That i understand you whether they wanted to have a big Health Care System maybe theyre in the back yes you thank you from your comments it sounds like you make a youre making a very. Broad distinction between governments and private companies and the free market is this distinction reasonable and that for example if we were to limit protections that that government and force private Companies Like Goldman Sachs operate like governments so it is absolutely the case that we now live in a world where corporations but not just corporations wealthy individuals are taking a bigger responsibility and bigger role in the participation of public what things were used to be the purview of only Public Affairs public government think about the Gates Foundation think about many other foundations around the world that are delivering Health Care Outcomes outside of the electoral process education etc so these lines are certainly becoming more and more blurred i personally think that we are moving more into the World Without requiring that not only because shareholders are demanding it but other stakeholders and communities they say if youre going to set up a company in our backyard we want you to help with infrastructure want you to build schools we want you to invest in health care and it is in the red jacket youve mentioned this quite a few times debates and dialogues in africa at the moment when they talk about political and business politics as you so succinctly put it different people are taking part rich the powerful why upperclassman are part of the conversation so what do you suggest needs to happen for africans to take back control of the dialogue the conversation and decide what happens in our countries well one of the most interesting questions i received when i was marketing did aid was if i if i were given a 1000000000 dollars what would i do with it and my answer was i would invest it all in a p. R. Organization because as far as im concerned the aid movement has been tremendously successful for 60 years in convincing africans that theyre not worth being part is today having a seat around the table theyre not that smart theyre not that good and theyre always going to be a drag on the Global Economy the narrative of africa is as been in my lifetime one of corruption disease war and poverty over the past 10 years theres been a significant shift with the arrival of china in many. Other countries but the and those countries do have their issues but the notion that anyone would think that theres been a positive narrative around what the stories are all africa is just for hardy lets go back to just last weekend here in the work of the policy for we do believe it can contribute to addressing challenges like inequality and redistribution. In the almost 10 years since your book in regions like africa weve seen a turbo tax revenues of quadrupled deaths from diseases like malaria hiv ha. And weve also seen poverty rates come down and aid has made a contribution and we have seen democracy move forward in fits and starts so the idea that you know you continue to hold those using you would actually. Be Even Stronger is hard to understand can you explain yeah sure im so 2 things 1st of all i dont know what entirely know what the oxfam aid budget comes from but many agencies that are all oprah liberated across africa are heavily reliant on their government and western governments the corrosive nature of aid is around this question of democracy on the african continent we do want to be able to hold our government accountable we can do that if actually oxfam is going to solve the Health Care Problem somebody else is going to solve education how are we able to hold our government accountable from a Public Policy stance if they are not the ones who are delivering these outcomes we do need to move away and i was very clear that i didnt say we need to go to 0 i think there are some initiatives and there are some good things that i am i am i myself am involved in some aid initiatives that i think a very good a very targeted but even the aid programs to europe after the war after world war 2 in the form of Marshall Plan were short sharp and targeted they were not open ended concessions that have been very corrosive to africa not just because of corruption because of inflation the debt burden that theyve left on the continent and i will just say one last thing you get a whole list of positive things that have happened in the content of the last decade youre absolutely right theyve been succinct significant wins in the notion that those are because of aid i think is wrong i mean can we as i say weve had china come in has been significant investment from china were able to trade with the chinese for better or for worse and i think that that is just one. Example many other governments are now going to the Capital Markets to raise capital so i think it is producing some help but its absolutely not the case that it is because of the regime which has been around for 60 years going to the general about and then the lady who has been waiting you talk about the very long term view Economic Policy needs to take in the country in the short termism that democracy brings but well look at the example of rwanda what hes doing hes basically limiting civil rights for the benefit of growth now in an african context do you feel that Critical Mass can be amassed within the middle middle class to allow for distributive power within the economy so that. Rights and progress of the morsi can take root without having the hijacked by dictatorships and things like that to get where youre coming from usually so its a good thing what is doing on the growth front regardless of the political or vice versa i believe the what program is doing is interesting. You should be saying this is. What you think about rwanda and the government whats happened well im not rwanda i dont live in rwanda so it would be kind of arrogant of me to sit here and start pointing fingers at that economy what i will say is that that country came from a genocide that the world turned their backs we flew people out within 90 days 10 percent of the population was massacred and we didnt really we did nothing the International Community did nothing and so you know i am sympathetic to the fact that there they had a very big difficult challenge everything was raised to the ground i think that they are showing improvements in many of the metrics that economists care about things they doing business participation there are 61 percent of women in parliament more than anywhere else in the world there are things that i can pick up and say that that is something for us to look at and emulated in the black jacket of your computer one of the things you do suggest quite often is actually to make voting man a tree. And in brazil it is banditry and in fact more than 20 percent of the population does not go and vote and resents the fact that there is this policy and you cannot argue that brazil certainly in the last few years has been a disengaged society in any shape or form dont you think that not voting is not only a reflection of how society feels about their elites and their representatives but also ultimately part and parcel of the right to vote is the right not to vote. Well i actually believe in the civic right people died for the right to vote and so i really i would talk about mental boredom as i think its something we should explore i think it really is interesting. You know as you know there are 27 countries around the world that have mandatory voting from australia belgium greece are many countries in south america do i think that that people the only reason people dont vote is because theyre trying to send a message to the Political Class and they need no i think there are a lot of economic arguments a lot of people in the United States as you know the president ial election every 4 years is on a tuesday and there are a lot of people who are minimum wage would like to vote who are not able to go to vote because it takes too long and theres a process where you were able to i want to go to a woman of the book. I was wondering about the importance of voters being informed and well as misinformed what do you think is the balance of responsibilities between voters informing themselves and educating themselves and the government preventing misinformation and Campaign Finance reform that will get more Accurate Information out to the voters what is the balance of responsibilities or are they equal i think thats a great question particular in a world where we have fake news we have social media is a different conduit and so one of the things that ive been looking at and ive written about is whether or not we we need some kind of glass steagall regulation to sort of this is really refers to the Banking Sector where we separate Retail Consumer banking from Investment Banking do we need that kind of regulation in the media so in other words some clear delineation between fact versus fiction and i think thats something thats on the agenda right now and i would be very supportive of that im tradition of the b. B. C. Walter cronkites of the United States i didnt matter what race or gender or where part of the political spectrum you were on everybody got the with this one fount of Knowledge Base in one form of knowledge that is the very different now were all sort of quite siloed we get our information for where we are places where we want to sort of reinforce our views and so i do think if government and Public Policy actually wants to survive we do want to have much more diversity of thought and. Find it challenging on one hand it talks about kind of aid and that being a bad coach or being making it difficult to create change and then on the other hand talk about trade and then you have kind of the market you know supporting people and helping to develop economies i just wonder are we talking one kind of challenging institution for another so i did it i offered 5 proposals for alternatives as for aid and i again just to be absolutely clear you know when did a did i say we want to go to 08 even in developed countries there are areas of society that are based on charitable outcomes welfare of the couple welfare systems the government etc so we dont have to go to 0 but we do need to think about things like Foreign Direct Investment issues around tapping the Capital Markets this is just the suite of things that other countries that are very successful at the developed and developing use and so trade youre right its under a lot of challenge and threat right now with the rise of protectionism emanating from the kneading economies but i do think that we its not just about one solution its about a whole host of portfolio of initiatives and i offered them in the book as well youre saying you didnt go to 0 yes well just because you knew for a mystery there was a lot of controversy around that bullet came out the book you said what if one by one african countries each received a phone call telling them exactly 5 years tops would be shut off permanently yes but i didnt say that thats what they should do i said what if what if it is a question it is not a statement. Im a final question Robert Kennedy famously said in 160. 00 g. D. P. This measuring of Economic Growth quote does not include the beauty of our poetry of the strength of our marriages it measures neither our wisdom or a learning other our compassion nor our devotion to our country it measures everything in short except that which makes life worthwhile to do with well yes and to some degree because simon couldnt thats when he came up with the g. D. P. Statistics and he had a brilliant thing he said the truth of the matter is that there are 4 categories of countries there under developed developed japan and argentina. Nobody knows why japan grows and why argentina doesnt and i think that really is emblematic of the field of economics we are learning what you valving innovating and a lot of what has been said here are is food for thought as things that people are trying to reinjure improve on and i would not suggest that we should throw out all the knowledge and all the impact that was mentioned earlier all the benefits and the significant improvements that the world has seen i mean today 71 years old is the global average for Life Expectancy these are significant benefits that have occurred over the last half century and i think we do need to actually recognize that there have been benefits from the system and we do need to tweak and focus on improving the ones where theyve been weaknesses the reason why well have to leave it there thanks to our audience here in the oxford union thanks to our panel of amazing experts and thanks to dumby somewhere for joining us ive had thank you very much. National board to the debate on migration is polarized. Strident this is all close in the headlines how do you define an indigenous brits who do they tend to think isnt this more about living with difference and you and visas and who do they contain. The right to live anywhere in the world have every right to leave their country. Goes head to head. On aljazeera. Hello the weather story in the u. S. In the next 3 or 4 days is going to be this cloud here which is the front page of a Tropical Cyclone cristobal now its main story is going to be the amount of rain its fairly slow moving although it will be fairly windy the rain itself is going to cause the problem plus a storm surge all along marco gulf coast from louisiana to Florida Panhandle now beyond that is fairly quiet at the moment the rain thats coming in on the canadians other boars obvious but in the u. S. Its the mountain states or down to wards california towards San Francisco and it moves inland during monday at the same time well be talking about the matter of rains falling in the flat states around the mississippi because it will be a lot and still a storm surge of course to follow because the onshore breeze does tend to pick up the water hence the warnings so lets drop science at the moment krista bells just left the shows the yucatan is rebuilding itself and becoming rather more strongly cause flooding sense of flooding throughout yucatan mexico really and its brother its cousin the same in el salvador as you can see much better picture for Central America its a few showers and no more than that all the energy has gone up north with cristobal. As bombs continue to rain down on afghanistan civilians are paying the ultimate price they are complicit no one is listening to these people while those responsible operate with impunity this is about owning our mistakes says about things accountability in a largely on account of war has anyone from the us military been in touch with you since the night. Lines investigates afghanistan civilian loss in the u. S. Air war. This is aljazeera. This is a new line from coming up in the next 60 minutes. Tens of thousands gather in washington d. C. Demonstrating against Police Brutality in the wake of georgia for its. It cant be dying out here and no ones do anything about that. While around the world from london to sydney tens of thousands marched in solidarity