Transcripts For BBCNEWS BBC News 20171019

Scotland is set to become the first part of the uk to introduce a ban on smacking children. And shining a light on diwali celebrations taking place throughout the country tonight. Good evening and welcome to bbc news. Theresa may is in brussels tonight at an eu summit to assess the progress so far towards brexit and crucially, whether talks can start on a trade deal. The german chancellor Angela Merkel says there are encouraging signs of progress but mrs merkel and other eu leaders are still insisting the uk make further moves before any discussion on trade. Our Political Editor Laura Kuenssberg reports from brussels. Speaking britains language . Not so much. Because in this town, it is money that talks. The Prime Minister thinks the uk has promised enough to settle our accounts. We will also be looking at the concrete progress that has been made in our exit negotiations and setting out ambitious plans for the weeks ahead. I particularly want to see an urgency on reaching an agreement on Citizens Rights. Are you willing to budge . I set out a few weeks ago in florence a very bold and ambitious agenda and vision for our future partnership between the eu and uk. But the most powerful woman in europe doesnt think so. Translation britain has made encouraging progress, but it is not enough. Her new best french friend agrees. We are united and strong, he says. And here, the others. Has the uk made enough big promises . Enough compromises to get brexit moving . I think theresa may needs to persuade herself and her government to be more forthcoming and realistic on the package, the total package negotiations. Shes not being realistic right now . Not yet. I said theresa, please make clear what you mean with that, at least when and how you will propose to tackle this debate. If she wont compromise on the money, we are heading for a breakdown . At least between now and december, it would help a lot. Dont let that happy trio fool you. The eus big brokers do not think the Prime Minister has compomised enough. Theresa may has suggested we pay 20 billion euros as we go. But they want to know if we will also cover a share of eu pensions, projects and commitments we signed up to as members, and although some smaller countries are a bit more sympathetic, the negotiations will not move on until we tell. There will not be a deal on Citizens Rights or the irish border either. The labour leader rallying in brussels today as well said the risk of no deal is dangerous. It is not good enough, all this time after the referendum, to still not be able to tell us what is happening, what the position is or what the outcome will be. Barring a miracle, it is almost impossible that this lot will agree to startingtrade talks with britain tomorrow. But what theresa may does expect is a promise to at least broach the idea with each other in the coming months. But they want in return from the british side is more compromise and more cash on the table. We are still in the club but no longer included in the group hug. Already outsiders on the inside, and to move on we or they will have to budge. Laura kuenssberg, bbc news, brussels. In a moment will take to our Political Correspondent Eleanor Garnier in westminster. But first to Damian Grammaticas who is in brussels. So many words get used, it sometimes impenetrable as an onlooker. What do the eu 27 specifically want from the uk to Start Talking about trade . Very simply, you heard some of them say it right there, they need the uk to sit down at the negotiating table and be detailed, to come clean at the negotiating table about what it is actually going to propose to do with the money, so to do with how much it is prepared to pay, leaving the eu, the financial commitments. That does not mean there is some, it just means detail about what theresa may is saying that she is going to pay for. The same thing with the irish issue, about how to deal with the border in northern ireland. Between the north and south. How are they going to sort up that problem, they going to sort up that problem, the proposals, and the same thing with the issue of citizens, eu citizens living in the uk. How can they guarantee the rights those citizens have today and into the future . There are specific there that have not yet been tackled and addressed and that the eu say have to be. We are all sitting here waiting this evening because the leaders are having a dinner, theresa may is at that dinner, standing up to talk to the eu leaders. She will try to convince them that she is acting, that she wants these talks to move forward, but until those things happen, in the negotiations, they are stuck. The uk is not going to be able to push things forward and no baxendale is happening at the minute while things remain stuck like that. Thats what we needed, two and a half minutes of clarity from david in brussels. Thank you very much. Now to our Political Correspondent Eleanor Garnier in westminster. How is theresa may going to cast this back home . She faces an enormous amount of pressure notjust in brussels but back home in westminster as well. Depending on the outcome of this dinner, tomorrows working breakfast as well, we know really that there is not going to be a big story, a big move to talk about trade. She is going to come back to more accusations from the opposition, that the government is not doing well enough and that the brexit negotiations are going badly. That is why we saw negotiations are going badly. That is why we saneremy corbyn, the labour leader, with fellow mps in brussels trying to move on and get their deadlock broken. Another area of pressure that theresa may faces is from some pretty hard core tory brexiteers, along with labour mps and some Business Leaders as well, who heads the dinner and brussels tonight, Richard Theresa may, urging her to give the eu countries an ultimatum, to call their bluff, if you like, saying she needs to recognise that the idea of no deal, when it comes to trade, is notjust possibly inevitable but that it should be seen as an attractive option. They have urged her to say to the eu 27, if you will not Start Talking about trade, we are going to move away from these negotiations, we are going to move to World Trade Organisation rules are merely the eu in march 2019, and they want that to happen because they think the eu is just being difficult, that it is stringing the talks along because it wa nts to stringing the talks along because it wants to punish britain. Of course, thatis wants to punish britain. Of course, that is denied in brussels but it just shows theresa may is facing pressure in brussels and is fighting on one front there but shes fighting in the front here back in westminster. She has a pretty difficult ahead. Thank you both. And well find out how this story and many others are covered in tomorrows front pages at 10 40 this evening in the papers our guests joining me tonight are the political commentator lance price and camilla tominey, Political Editor at the sunday express. Theres been a sharp rise in the number of crimes recorded by the police in england and wales. Figures from the office for National Statistics show an increase of 13 in the past year. On the same day, Norfolk Police became the first force in england and wales to cut all of its Community Support officers citing a funding gap and an unparalleled growth in complex crimes. Across england and wales a whole the total number of offences recorded by police passed the five million mark for the first time in a decade. The number of violent offences rose by 19 percent in the 12 months to the end ofjune. Norfolk police, which is facing a funding shortfall of £10 million, is axing all 150 of its police Community Support officers. Its chief constable cited the funding shortfall and an unparalleled growth in complex crimes such as Sexual Offences and cyber crime. From norfolk, mike liggins reports. This is the man who has to make the numbers add up. At the moment, chief co nsta ble numbers add up. At the moment, chief constable simon bailey says they dont. 100 constable simon bailey says they dont. 100 and 50p cso jobs are going, which will contribute overall savings of £2 million. With serious crime in norfolk, rape, abuse and drugs rising in recent years, more regular officers will be recruited. I know im doing the right thing based on all the evidence at my disposal. When you look at the release of the Crime Statistics today, it makes that point. Sexual and Violent Crime is up. I need a workforce that is able to tackle the threat. That is able to deal with a high harm, high risk crimes. Simon bailey broke the news to pc so high harm, high risk crimes. Simon bailey broke the news to pc s0 is at lunchtime today, inevitably many we re lunchtime today, inevitably many were devastated. You havejust lunchtime today, inevitably many were devastated. You have just come out of the meeting. Whats the mood . I left partway through to talk to you, but anger, i left partway through to talk to you, butanger, disbelief. People absolutely broken, because their whole life has been altered. The federation which represents regular officers is worried about extra workload. Unfortunately, that workload. Unfortunately, that workload will not disappear with the pcsos, that will be put on already stretched officers trying to do their job stretched officers trying to do theirjob day in day out, working regularly long hours are lots of overtime. The burnt out. In a wide ranging review, the commitment to putting officer in each of the cou nty to putting officer in each of the county s secondary schools to combat the dangers of the internet has had to be cut back significantly. With fewer people using police stations, seven enquiry desks will be axed and 25jobs will go. Thats ok by me. If it is saving cost, you know. Money has to be saved in some way, doesnt it . |j must admit i cant remember the last timel must admit i cant remember the last time i walked into a police station. The last time i contacted them was on twitter. We have not closed our public engagement, we have closed the way we are engaging with the public, managers will be available at each of the other stage and is quickly released two hours to respond to the public. The police have always had to adapt to change, its part of their history. But these changes in norfolk are among the most dramatic the decades. They are being watched closely by forces across the country. Joining me now from our westminster studio is paddy tipping, Labour Police and crime commissioner for nottinghamshire. How does the picture in nottinghamshire compared to what we are seeing nationally with these new statistics . We are facing a perfect storm, crime is up, very significantly, and Police Officers down. Pcsos are down. There is no wonder crime is going up. Lets be clear, Police Numbers are at the lowest level for 30 years. 20,000 officers have lost theirjobs since 2010, there is no surprise that prime numbers and the complexity of crime is going up. Is any of this a function of the fact that criminals are more organised, they can hide more easily on the internet . are more organised, they can hide more easily on the internet . I think thats absolutely right. Although volume crime, things like burglary, carcrime, volume crime, things like burglary, car crime, shoplifting has tended to come down or remain stable, the new landscape is online. Your child is more likely to be abused online than they are on the streets these days. The pattern of crime is changing. Terrorism, real and immediate threat, cybercrime, and fraud are growing. There has been a big report, a big increase in reporting of rape and sexual violence. Those are complex crimes, they take extra resources , are complex crimes, they take extra resources, and fewer officers are trying to do with them. Surely as the commissioner, you have a lot of influence in the way you for forces made up, and maybe an option like getting rid of pcsos like theyre doing in norfolk and replacing them with Police Constables might be a better option . We have been reducing the number of pcsos at its peak, it was 268. Today, its about 200. Numbers have gone down. We have close police stations, we are working with other forces, sharing resources , working with other forces, sharing resources, cutting back office costs, sharing it systems, we are trying to protect the front line. But ultimately, when £2. 3 billion has been taken out of the Police Budget by the government since 2010, there is some pretty hard decisions to be taken. And there are some pretty ha rd to be taken. And there are some pretty hard situations for the general public to face. They want to feel safe and secure in their homes and streets. Im afraid the figures out today dont give that confidence. I saying the nottinghamshire is less safe and will become even worse . What im saying is that people are working ha rd saying is that people are working hard with a less resources. Crime is going up in nottinghamshire, its going up in nottinghamshire, its going up in nottinghamshire, its going up the rest of the country, ultimately the government needs to review the situation. The budget in five weeks time. The government needs to sit up, think up and recognise that terrorism is a real threat. Cybercrimes on the increase, and the reporting of serious sexual crime is going up as well. The chancellor has got the opportunity to react, i hope he will do it. Thank you. The headlines on bbc news the Prime Minister is in brussels for an eu summit hoping for progress in brexit negotiations. Theres been a big increase in the number of crimes, particularly violent offences, in england and wales. The actor, tom hanks, has described the Sexual Misconduct allegations against Harvey Weinstein as a watershed moment, that will lead to a sea change in hollywood. In a moment here on the bbc news strike a light diwali celebrations take place throughout the country. Sport now. And time for a full round up from the bbc sport centre. Afterjust one point from their opening two matches it is three wins out of three in the Europa League for arsenal. The latest came in the hostile arena of red star in belgrade. And was thanks to a stunning goal from olivier giroud. Patrick gearey has more. Perhaps he just needed a chance, perhaps that was it. Arsene wengers side have been criticised for everything from the metals are marking. The latter at fault here but Red Star Belgrade could not quite punish them. When stalwart european champions in 1991 but seem content european champions in 1991 but seem co nte nt to european champions in 1991 but seem content to be noisy spoilers, restricting arsenal to occasional dancers of all, 17 year old rhys nelson came as close as any. The game kicked the gunners here. Use of the armour seemed worthy as a yellow card. He had already got one, so his evening was over. Arsenals was just starting. The quality which had been missing distilled into one move and one remarkable goal from missing distilled into one move and one remarkable goalfrom due rude. Afterjust one point from their opening two matches everton are currently taking on french side lyon in their latest group game. Ronald koeman left wayne rooney out of the starting line up. And theyve got off to a terrible start conceding a penalty in just the sixth minute. Nabile fekir scred from the spot lyon leading 1 0. As pressure mounts on seniorfigures at the fa following their appearance in front of a group of mps yesterday. Tonight the organisations board is meeting. And despite their handling of discrimination claims against former england womens boss mark sampson being described as we expect that board to back the current leadership. Chairman greg clarke and chief executive martin glenn have been widely criticised following the evidence given to the department for culture, media and Sport Select Committee with the sports minister tracy crouch saying she hopes the fa learns lessons after how they dealt with racism and bullying claims made by england striker eni aluko. Gary neville worked for the fa as an england coach and has had strong words for the organisation. The fa has forfar too the fa has for far too long the fa has forfar too long moved from one Management Team to the other, theres been no continuity, it always goes in different directions. I do believe that fa needs to be completely reformed from a governance point of view. Its a shambles, always has been. The bureaucracy and things that happen within the fa, i know its got better, but that is not a modern organisation. You have to look at the head, martin glenn, and i feel that decisions need to be made because i think the fa and the trust from the public from professionals within the sport is at an all time low. This needs to be prepared. I dont feel anybody will be willing to buy into repairing it until the people who are in the positions of power are changed. Two time formula one champion Fernando Alonso will continue to race for mclaren in 2018 after signing a new deal. The move ends speculation over the spaniards immediate future. And its believed the one Year Contract has an option to be extended. Alonso believes mclarens new engine supplier renault can return the team to competitiveness next year after three difficult seasons with honda. Kristian thomas, who won a gymnastics bronze medal at the london olympics in 2012, has announced his retirement. Thomas was part of the five man squad that won great britains men their first team medal for 100 years. He also won european golds in 2012 and 2015 and a commonwealth gold in 2014. Britains Amy Truesdale has won gold at the world para taekwondo championships in london. Its the first time the event has been hosted in the uk. And comes ahead of the sport making its paralympic debut at tokyo 2020. Truesdale was leading world number two rajae ajkermach of morocco by 1a points in the plus 58kg final when the moroccan withdrew through injury. Thats all the sport for now. Ill have more for you in sportsday at 10. 30. The oscar winning actor, tom hanks, whose career has spanned four decades, has told bbc news that there is no chance that the disgraced producer Harvey Weinstein, facing allegations of rape and sexual harassment, can return to work in hollywood. The star said this was a watershed moment for the industry. He was speaking to our arts editor, will gompertz, in new york, to mark the publication of his new book of short stories. Here we go. One thing about the hermes 2000, it was a lot heavier than the toy typewriter. The green carrying case banged against her legs as she carried it home. She stopped twice, putting the machine down. Not because she needed to rest but because her palm had gotten sweaty. Were you worried about coming out as a novelist . Well, petrified, of course. I still cant believe that people have put my stories in a book and are going to try to make people pay in order to read them. Its astounding. All these, broadly speaking, are set in america. What was the picture you were trying to paint . America is a place of relentless ongoing chances. You dontjust get Second Chances in the united states, you get third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh chances. You get to remake yourself in the united states. Is there any chance for Harvey Weinstein to come back . No. I think we are at a watershed moment. This is a sea change. I think his last name will become a noun and a verb. It will become an identifying. It will become an identifying moniker for a state of being for which there is a before and after. I dont. No, not at all. Imean, no. Perhaps all men, myself included, should pipe down and not try to explain it and not try to comment on it. Certainly not to try to defend it. I was talking to a very famous, very well respected actress who is a very good friend of yours, who said almost entirely the opposite. She said its time for the men to stand up and do something. Well, im saying that first weve got to hear from everybody so that we understand how vast and how all encompassing this was. Thats a. B is its all got to change. Youre one of the actors representatives on the academy board, i believe, so you must have been involved in that conversation about. Yes, i was. Having Harvey Weinstein removed from the academy. Im a member of the board of governors, so yes, i was present at the meeting. And what did that conversation sound like . Im not at liberty to discuss. Id be going against my responsibilities. Did you talk about issues like, should we have a code of ethics etc . Honestly im not at liberty to discuss it. Just touching on donald trump. 0k is he a character you would like to play . Oh no, dear lord, no. Weve had fools that have governed us and weve had brilliant people that have governed us but sometimes the fools got more stuff done than the brilliant people. And whos governing you at the moment . Fool or brilliant . Oh, well. Lets not say brilliant hindus, sikhs and jains across the world are celebrating diwali the festival of lights this week. The five day festival which starts today is marked by lights, fireworks and lots of sweets. Well the largest celebration outside india is taking place in leicester. A little earlier i spoke to our correspondent, simon ward, who is there and soaking up the atmosphere. The celebrations did start humbly in the 60s but they are massive now. This area is known as the golden mile, you can see the lights shining, they were switched on a couple of weeks ago. Just for the switch on they reckon there was around 40,000 people here. Diwali being celebrated over this period, you can see the big wheel, they call it the wheel of light, and they have this for the festival. We have been speaking to people earlier today to see what theyre looking to. Im looking forward to the city and the lights. I love photography, so im hoping to get some really good snaps today. And the food. Im so interested in the food right now everyone is out, you meet lots of people, its bright and bubbly. Everyone is out, you meet lots of people, its bright and bubblym all starts by, coming together as a family, making the food. Looking at the suites, the savoury food, things like that. Then giving it to the families and friends, going round, saying dont forget us as well its a happy accident i happen to be a leicester while this was happening. Im pretty excited. Where have you come from . Im from south australia. The hindu new year is coming round, just in time for the family to come together and start anew. Thats what it is for us. Since the lights are switched on the 8th of october there have been lots of events going on across the city and will carry on no doubt for the next few days . Absolutely. They have got special entertainment, stage is set in parts man city, celebrating well into the night. Enjoying lots of sweets, that was one of the things people have been chatting to us about, those indian sweets in particular, thats what they enjoy here. Lots of people streaming down belgrave road the celebrations. Do all the events they have set up. It isa hindu all the events they have set up. It is a hindu festival, forjames and sikhs as well, but very much as leicester is, a multicultural festival. Perhaps a few years ago people knew about diwali, but now lots of people from across all communities come here to leicester to celebrate diwali. Just behind you there are some fantastic restaurants along the belgrave road, arent there . I imagine there must be wonderful smells wafting your way. Absolutely. Myself and the crew have been pretty hungry this evening, as weve been doing our broadcast, but if you want a curry, then the golden mile is certainly the place to come. Sweets, indian sweets, very much the flavour for sweets, indian sweets, very much the flavourfor tonight as sweets, indian sweets, very much the flavour for tonight as well. Simon ward in leicester, lucky thing this is bbc news coming up in the next few minutes hitting the right or wrong note . Scotland is set to become the first part of the uk to ban smacking children. Now the weather. Some very windy weather on the way to the south this weekend. Even out there tonight, some blustery conditions with gales and braces across southernmost counties. Outbreaks of rain coming and going through the night, winds a lighter through the night, winds a lighter through the night, winds a lighter through the north, spots of rain but one or two will get away dry with partly clear skies. Temperatures not dropping a huge amount, 11 to 13 degrees on friday morning. Another bright start the many. Outbreaks of rain at times across england and wales through the morning, easing off, a few showers into the afternoon, myspace is turning dry. A bit brighter and more sunshine around into friday afternoon. Temperatures only around 14 to 15 degrees. They may feel a bit fresher but lots of sunshine, should feel pleasant. Wet and windy weather pushes them from the west as they go into the first bar to friday. All link to it a second named storm of the season, storm brian, bringing severe gales of parts of crystal wales and southern england into saturday. More details coming up. Shakespeare hello. This is bbc news with martine croxall. The Prime Minister is in brussels, hoping for progress in brexit negotiations, as an eu summit gets underway. As the number of recorded crimes in england and wales rises sharply, Norfolk Police say theyre getting rid of all of their police Community Support officers. The actor, tom hanks, has described the Sexual Misconduct allegations against Harvey Weinstein as a watershed moment, that will lead to a sea change in hollywood. Scotla nd scotland is to become the first part of the uk to set a ban on smacking children. Its become a common blight in many towns and cities the Illegal Dumping of household waste, builders rubble, tyres and even animal carcasses. New figures out today show more than a million cases of fly tipping were reported in england in the last year. Our correspondentjon kay has been looking at the scale of the problem. Its getting worse and worse. Looking at the scale of the problem. Fly tipping is a growing problem in every part of the uk. Cardboard boxes and underlay. We started the day in devon. Theres mattresses, gates. Wherejenny told us she feels sick. Disgusting. Every time she leaves her house in torquay. When you see this on your doorstep, how does it make you feel . Terrible, terrible, because it makes you feel dirty, doesnt it . Stood here now, youre getting a smell from it all, arent you . Yes. I can smell it, its horrible. And youve had a rat . Yeah, in my kitchen. Since last year, councils in england have been able to hand out fixed penalty fines but fly tipping is still getting worse. Two thirds of the waste thats dumped is household rubbish. It costs councils almost £58 million to clear up the mess. Most councils charge for collecting bulky waste but its up to £100 per vanload. This is probably our worst case on the farm here. Our next stop, somerset, and when fly tipping happens on garys farm, its up to him as the landowner to get rid of it. Weve got builders rubbish, bricks. Most of this is industrial waste, and gary reckons things would improve if councils accepted it at the tip for free, but he also thinks theres a cultural problem. I think sometimes its just down to the people. Some peoplejust dont care, they really dont, so theyjust lob it out and its not their problem, is it . And this is now your problem . Yes. Its big urban areas that are worst affected. Our final stop, inner city bristol. Abbi thinks there would be less fly tipping if councils collected the bins more often and shes worried about the effect on her childrens health. They want to go dumping rubbish everywhere, its not nice. Yeah. Hopefully one day it will stop. And people will start picking up the rubbish . Yeah . Yeah. Do you think they will stop . No. Councils say they want the system speeded up, so persistent fly tippers can be prosecuted and punished more quickly. But the government says local authorities already have the powers they need. Jon kay, bbc news. One council that has had success in tackling fly tipping is sandwell. Local councillor Elaine Costigan worked on sandwells campaign against fly tipping and joins me now via skype. Thank you very much forjoining us this evening. Just how bad was the problem in your part of the country . It was pretty bad. I mean the amount of cases that we had, was just ridiculous. To be fair, the residents, said that was the highlight, the fly tipping. It has been reduced since we put our Campaign Together by 13 in four months. So we are pleased with what we have done with enforcement and cameras. We deployed five cameras with wi fi, it seems to have worked. It is absolutely amazing at the moment in sandwell. Why has it worked . A combination of the fly tipping team and the deployment of five cameras which are wi fi and we can move them easily to different lamp posts easily. We have seen a huge reduction in four months. We have 27 fines in four months. We have 27 fines in four months. We have seen a huge, huge reduction. Also we get our bins emptied on a weekly basis in sandwell. How easy is it to catch those responsible with your cameras . Well it is wi fi connected so goes to an ipad and it picks up information that is passed on to the service which it responds quickly to. We can get it removed within 40 minutes with the new cameras. It is brilliant. How successful are you at prosecuting . We have prosecuted 27 infour prosecuting . We have prosecuted 27 in four months. The fines are £400. We are pleased. It was only four in a year, so we have made a huge difference. We had a Massive Campaign and it is working. The cost involved is huge for councils to clear up and dispose of it, so how high should the fines be . We are clear that £400 but they can be fined up to to £1,000. You must remember, it is down to the people that pay all the council tax and the rate was £300,000 in a year for clearing all the fly tipping and it is not good enough. So we are getting there in sand and we arewell really pleased. Why do you think people doing it . |j think people are laziy. We have a tip in the area, that is what we could not understand. It is open seven days a week. But we saw a huge amount of fly tipping still. But it has come down now. So obviously we are doing something right in Sandwell Council and with are really, really pleased. Thank you very much for tell us about your success. Scotland looks set to become the first part of the uk to ban the smacking of children. The Scottish Government has decided to give its support to legislation put forward by a green party msp. The bill will remove the defence of justifiable assault which allows parents to use physical punishment. Andrew kerr has the details. Safe and sound in soft play, protecting children is the top priority of parents and grandparents at this play centre. The Scottish Governments proposals to ban smacking have become a law. If you see a parent smacking a child you are not going to be happy about it. You could question them if it gets out of hand. But i dont think people want to smack their kids. There are other ways to go about it. Iagree. It there are other ways to go about it. I agree. It sends a clear message that people must use more effective methods to discipline children. I dont think they should have banned it. Look at the kids at schools . What is it like now . The kids rule the schools. The Scottish Government had said that they would not oppose the msp proposals, and have assured it will ablaw with the officials working to make it happen. It is good news from a ledge straitive point of view and a Child Protection and societal point of view. The evidence shows that there are no benefits to be accrued from children being surrounded by or being the subject of violence. And indeed, only the catastrophe controversies say that there is an oppose but one smp msp said we are only one of six countries that have legislation that allows the smacking of children. So you have to ask yourself, in this day and age, is it a positive thing to say you cannot assault somebody in the you cant assault somebody in the you cant assault somebody in the you cant assault somebody in the street but you can smack a child . Campaigners are pointing out that decent law abiding parents could anybody danger of being criminalised. The concern about so called state interference comes as the government has faced full throated opposition to its controversial name a person scheme. Those against the ban say that they are stepping up their campaign. Pa rents are stepping up their campaign. Parents should decide how to bring up parents should decide how to bring up their children. I think it is pa rt up their children. I think it is part of a wider concerning trend, the idea that along with name a person, that the state should protect children from their own pa rents, protect children from their own parents, whereas i think that the state should not be involved in parenting. Parents should make the choices, unless it is an extreme case of abuse or neglect where intervention is needed. Campaigns have been kick started in wales, as the government look at a ban there too. It looks likely that the scotland government is the first in the uk to put it on its institute books. Joining me from edinburgh is reverend iver martin, from the free church of scotland. Also im joined from glasgow byjohn wilkes, the scotland director for the equality and human rights commission. Welcome to both of you. John wilkes, what is wrong with giving a naughty child a light tap to bring them into line . The issue is about ensuring that children have protection from violence. That is all forms of violence. That is all forms of violence. That is in keeping with the United Nations convention with the United Nations convention with the rights of the child and increasing thinking across the world. Is it violent to give them a slab on the back of the legs if they are playing you up . The commission reviewed the evidence in reaching its c in support of the measures and the overwhelming evidence suggests that even low level forms of violence, like smack can lead to behavioural problems, anxiety and emotional problems. There are many nation, over 50, that have banned the provisions. Including sweden which had the provision for over 37 yea rs. Which had the provision for over 37 years. There are many other strategies for dealing with children. Children have rights and pa rents children. Children have rights and parents have responsibilities. Pa rents parents have responsibilities. Parents dont have unlimited freedom or rights over their children. The state and the society sets provisions about how children should be protected and how parents should be protected and how parents should be behaving. Reverend iver martin, how can you justify smacking your child . |j reverend iver martin, how can you justify smacking your child . I am not here to champion the cause of smacking, nor is my church. I know people who use a certain measure of physicality in their homes and others who dont. This crosses religious divides and crosses into homes with people of no religion at all. I think a lot of this is to do with the language. Im concerned for several things. With the language. Im concerned for severalthings. Concerned with the language. Im concerned for several things. Concerned with what has been mentioned with the intrusion into peoples homes. I think that people will resent that. I hear think that people will resent that. Iheara think that people will resent that. I hear a lot of government talk about the will of the scottish people but i think when this becomes a reality, and when people start becoming criminalised for this, i think there will be a lot of resentment. That is exactly what will happen. It will see ordinary loving parents criminalised for doing what they believe is reasonable and measured and that is including, within the upbringing of their children, including, within the upbringing of theirchildren, a including, within the upbringing of their children, a certain measure of physicality. John wilkes, if you are to criminalise a parent, then for smacking a child, what should the penalty be . Well, the issue of what happens if this provision is passed and parents contravene that is that it is the prosecution authorities that decide whether a prosecution ta kes that decide whether a prosecution takes place. As the director of Public Prosecutions in england and wales gave evidence to thejoint committe of human rights said it was unlikely that in the way of minor physical assaults on aye dolts are prosecuted that would be the case of pa rents prosecuted that would be the case of parents falling foul of this. Is there a point to the law, then . It is about setting standards and principles, we dont condone violence between adults in domestic relationships, or condone violence among older people, so why have any sense of condoning violence against children. Reverend iver martin, that is right. You would not condone violence adult to adult, so is it not right that parents lead by example and dont mete it out to their children . Absolutely. If we are calling this violence, then i would really refrain from the use of the word violence. What would you call it . I would call a certain amount ofa call it . I would call a certain amount of a measure call it . I would call a certain amount of a measure of fiscal cast icement. That doesnt sound much better . think it does. I was brought up in scotland in a scottish culture, i with i think accepted a certain form of upbringing. Now, of course that could go to extremes. Of course we wa nt could go to extremes. Of course we want to avoid the extremes. The law at the moment does allow for and it does pre clued what we would call extreme behaviour. But at the moment parents have liberty to choose whether to include within the framework of the upbringing of the children physicality or not. That liberty is going to be taken away from them and im really concern bad that. Surely, though, parenting is not easy. I know that. The kids drive you nuts sometimes. But hitting them is never surely going to be the answer. To teach them it is ok for me to hit you but out in the wide world, when you get older, you will not be able to do that. How is that a sensible lesson . I know the argument. I appreciate that a lot of this is to do with your understanding of whether a smack is a hit or violent but my concern, here is another concern in an effort to, we are not all child psychologists, so most parents dont know how to implement the kind of programmes that are being suggested to us. My concern is that in an effort to avoid physicality in the childrens upbringings, that parents resort to more harmful ways of bringing up their children. Like what . Like as ar sighs. If my mother decided not to talk to me for 24 hours as an alternative to smacking me,| hours as an alternative to smacking me, ithink hours as an alternative to smacking me, i think i would have grown up something scarred. There are more toxic ways, i think, of scarring your children and i dont think that amounts to a good future for them. John wilkes, lets finish with you. You mentioned other countries like sweden, which seem progressive in some ways than britain at times, what sort of strategies can parents use then . If they are at the end of their tether and smacking is not per missable, what can they do . Parents are adopting more strategies without violence or smacking. I think people will have to be supported if the provision comes into effect, a pa rent provision comes into effect, a parent should be supported