Transcripts For CNNW The 20240704

Today, ireland paid final respects to singer activists Sinead Oconnor who died almost two weeks ago. Hundreds lined her streets to pay the respects. The coffin made its way past our old home, which is in keeping with her old high risk cost them. Sinead oconnor was 56 when she died. That time now, for the source, with Kaitlan Collins. And Breaking News from ohio connectivity uncounted, as we have a crucial new witness test on Abortion Striker in america. More than a year after rose reversal, more on that in a moment. Plus, all shook up again as a failure to relaunch another the shovel of the Desantis Campaign. Will the latest shakeup make a difference . And after reading trumps new Election Interference in the, and a former official theorem said that his blood ran cold. The army thats take on the possibility of trump using the military to stay in power. Im Kaitlan Collins and this is the source. We start with Breaking News for you this evening, because cnn can now project that ohio voters have rejected issue one. This is a Ballot Measure Champion by the states republican led congress, that would have made it harder to change ohios constitution. To add an amendment. This is an effort by republicans to, basically change the rules before there is going to be a key vote on Abortion Rights come november. After seeing what happened in six other states. Either protecting Abortion Rights after wont versus wade was overturned, or restricting them. If issue one had passed, there would have needed to be a 60 supermajority to change the states constitution, instead of just a simple majority. But now, that is not happening, after the voters of ohio have spoken. Cnns chief National Affairs correspondent, jeff zeleny, isnt ohio tonight. Jeff, ive been tracking this all day. As people have been going to the polls. They werent sure what this was going to look. Like what happened here . Caitlin, we are at the vote no party. You can see they have actually been predicting victory. Slightly before our production. Largely because of the strength of the early vote. More than 700,000 ohioans had voted going into election day. And that strength continued throughout election day. So even as the numbers continue to come in from across the state, we can now project that the vote no wentz. And you can hear the applause behind me here. What this means is the beginning of the process. This is the beginning of a Major Campaign over Abortion Rights. And one of americas classic battleground states. Ohio of course, has been trending red in recent president ial elections, but abortion now will be on the ballot in november. And the threshold to in shrine Abortion Rights in the constitution will be 50 . That is what is at issue here. This is a twostep election if you will. Republican leaders were trying to make it more difficult to raise the bar for what it would take to pass the November Ballot measure. They wanted to make a 60 threshold, well that amendment was defeated today. That issue was defeated today. So, the beginning of this next Abortion Rights question and battle starts tonight in ohio. And, there is a Broad Coalition of supporters, and you can hear it behind me here, from labor to positions, to just rankandfile people. Who did not like the process that this one through. So vote no winds. Tonight in ohio, the campaign for Abortion Rights, which clearly will be a very Large Campaign with outside money pouring in. That begins in the morning for the November Ballot question. Kaitlan . I guess a sense of what we have been hearing here, is is this about voters being upset that this was a vote that they decided to have in august . Even though that republican Super Majority had just voted to eliminate august Special Elections, or do you think that it is a sense, from what you have heard on the ground, about an energy there. Behind what voters believe on Abortion Rights. It was definitely a mix. Abortion rights was a driver of this campaign, there is no doubt, but when you talk to many republicans they encountered. As weve been saying over the last month. Weve encountered many republicans who are opposed to Abortion Rights, but they do not believe that this summertime Special Elections was the way to change the State Constitution. Two former republican governors, taft, and kasich, have been campaigning across the state saying that the State Constitution should not be changed in this way. The threshold should not be raised. So there definitely was a sense of, some describe it as a power grab. When you talk to Secretary Of State, franklin wrote today, he distressed that. He said clearly this was not a chance to push something through. He may have been right about that, because the reality is, the vote no proponents came out. In large, large numbers. To support this. But it was about Abortion Rights. Also about minimum wage. There was going to be a question about raising the minimum wage on the ballot. Perhaps next year. And this was also part of, there is no doubt that ohio now stands in the list of k places like kansas healthy, michigan, kansas, and standing on Abortion Rights. Again, one step of the process. The real step happens in november, when the abortion is on the ballot. Here in ohio. Yes, the implications of that. Jeff zeleny, thank, you we will check back in with you. And were gonna speak with democratic ohio congresswoman, Chantal Brown in just a moment. But i want to start now with mike, he is the president of the ohio writer like. Mike, you are hoping that this was going to pass tonight. Why did this fail . Caitlin, thank you for having me on your show, look, theyre still over 7000 precincts that still needs to have the results started. Were expecting 1 million and i have votes, were not ready to call it on either side just yet. We still think the votes are out there. We are really good at same day voting in the Republican Party. We are Still Holding out, we dont think it would be called necessarily. Are still here, but the no side is winning, of course at the end of the day we still want to count all of our votes. You still think that there is a chance . I do, i think 7000 precincts. Its not in the nation, but in the state of ohio. So there is still time. Were going to let the process play out and see where we are at but at the end of the day we have been focused on november since january, this is just up one in the process, and we will be ready to go come november. I will say, cnn is obviously, really accurate with these protections. We dont make these early, we have these when we make a very good assessment of what the vote looks like on the ground. I, mean the big news is you are still waiting to see the final call. When this comes through, if it has failed, why do you think that it failed . This was a battle worth having, we needed to have a decision with the state of ohio all 88 counties. Do we want to protect our constitution from outside special interest . Whether they be liberal or conservative Special Interests, or do they wanted to be for sale . In the state of illinois, they have a 70 threshold to change a constitution. We said if its good enough for the blue state of illinois, it should be good for the red state of ohio. Voters decided tonight, but its a battle worth having. Its a question that we shouldve all as the night, and we did. The voters will respond, and the voters always get it right. Is that what its about . It is about special interest . Because even the ohio Secretary Of State, frank la rose, said quote, this is 100 about keeping a radical pro abortion amendment out of our constitution. Did that hurt your efforts here to get this to pass . Now, look, the strength of our side, our yes it was a diversity of our coalition. For myself, in my wife amy, of course, 100 percent about abortion and enshrining late term abortion in our State Constitution. Our Second Amendment was involved, the chamber of commerce, the ohio bureau. We were all in this issue tonight. And vote yes on issue one. But the state made it about abortion. Is that white felt . Not at all, the voters are smart, they know abortion is a tip of the spear this november. We know they qualified for the ballot weeks ago, we knew this was coming. And when the Special Interests are done with us, theyre gonna come for the Second Amendment, theyre gonna come, as you said, for a minimum wage. And so many other issues. Our farming industry, agriculture is next. So we have it tonight. Well still see what the results of this election. Whether we protect our constitution or not. But its bigger than abortion, its a better way of life. Where midwestern see, with midwestern values, we have the chance here to protect our constitution. Be like other states, like illinois. What do you say of people who are critical of the timing of this . Even former republican governor of the state, taft, said that a question this big should go to voters in november, not in the summer Special Election which the republican Super Majority there had just boarded to eliminate . Did they mess this up in the camp of people like you, who are trying to get this passed by scheduling this vote in august, and not doing so in november . At the end of the night, we had a great Voter Turnout today. In all 88 counties, early voting, same day voting, has been tremendous. Or the voters know there was an election. We didnt lose any ground here. We are approaching gubernatorial turnout here in a lot of county. Sub borders are smart, they knew there was one issue on the ballot. There is no city council races, other races, so the borders are smart. They knew there was an election today. And they responded. We will see here in 45 minutes to an hour whether final results may or may not be. But the fact that it was in august, did not weigh one way or the other. I think just to remind our viewers. Cnn has called, us and said that this vote is failed. I know youre saying that youre still waiting to hear it. What do you think this says about what is gonna happen, come november, when that amendment about protecting Abortion Rights is on the ballot . Do you think that this means that it could pass . As jeff just said, in the early reports, that there are a lot of republicans that are prolife that may have voted no on this issue tonight, that will be with us, shoulder to shoulder come november. Look, we have marijuana and abortion on the ballot this november coming up. I believe our faith based community, in all eight 80 counties will reject the vote. You dont think that this is a message from the voters, that republicans misjudge how Abortion Plays and politics . I dont think so. In june of 2022, the Dobbs Decision came out, and 90 days later, governor mike, a prolife governor, was reelected with 64 of the vote. Prolife republicans won entirely down the ballot in ohio. Thats 90 days after the Dobbs Decision. If there was gonna be some tsunami of prochoice voters, it wouldve happened in 2022, and just never occurred. We did say that when i drove of course. Many expected it was going to be a republican red wave in the midterms. And that didnt happen. Mike gonidakis, well see what happens come november with that measure in your state. President of ohio right to life, thank you for your time tonight. Thank you so much. For more on this i want to bring in Ohio Democratic congressman, Chantal Brown, thank you so much for being here. What do you make, lets go start with the idea that this has failed . That this issue has failed. And that obviously, abortion advocates want to this, those who favor having choices, having abortion, people be able to make those decisions wanted this to fail. What is the response to that tonight . First and foremost, thank you for having me. And i want to thank the voters, and the volunteers who showed up, and showed, out in ohio for this. What was a rushed, and in my opinion, an illegal election. I think what it shows is that the power remains in the hands of the people. Issues are still important, and that messaging matters. What do you make of what mike just said . He says that he doesnt think that the timing here had an effect. The fact that it was a Special Election, happening in august, this was the only issue that voters were voting on and casting their ballots on tonight. Do you think that is why this failed . I think it failed, or it is going to fail because people are paying attention. Despite their suppressive efforts to try to hold an election in, what i would describe as a sneak attack, people were paying attention. I am so grateful of the number of voters that showed up, and showed out early in ohio. To make their voices heard. This was about protecting a 100year president that had been set in ohio. A simple majority rule. Their efforts to try to raise the threshold to 60 for future elections, as well as changing the requirements to get us in a Citizen Led Initiative on the ballot, we are really sinister and sadistic. And when we think about the fact that currently right now, we require 44 counties of the 88 to get signatures to get something on the ballot. And they wanted to change it to 88. That means that one single county couldve held up an entire constitutional amendment for the entire state. And so, that is not democracy. That is not representative of what the people in ohio won it. This was about freedom, and i think the people of ohio demonstrated that they wanted to protect their right to make their own health care decisions. And that is what this barometer and litmus test demonstrates in the state. And i believe that history has proven, ohio is the pathway to victory when it comes to american politics. And, so we look at this as a litmus test, and we are thankful that when the votes are all counted, that this issue will have failed, and we will not only have saved democracy in ohio. But potentially across the country. Do you think that this means that that vote in november on protecting Abortion Rights is going to succeed . I am optimistic. Listen, we have to take each election one at a time. But what we know is currently, polling indicates that 58 of ohioans would want to in shrine and protect the right to make your own health care decisions. And despite the extreme maga republican sneak attack, to try to make that no longer the case, the people, again, showed out and were paying attention, and despite the efforts to try to silence the voice of the voters. I want to talk to about a poll that cnn came out with today, on abortion, that showed that 64 of majority of adults say they disapprove of the ruling. Essentially believe that, essentially were arguing that they dont believe that enough members of your party, or of those who favor Abortion Rights have done enough to protect it. Whether at a state level, or on a federal level . I mean what do you make of that, and how can you change those voters minds . I think we saw, we got a taste of that today. And listen, we did get a majority of voters. We passed legislation in the house that was stalled in the senate, but i want to say this. When the Dobbs Decision was made, ohio was one of the states that had a ten year old victim who had to flee the state to go to indiana to Access Health care, to access an abortion. And so, when we think about that, when we think about issues around our state, this election was critical to helping people make that decision. And i think its also important to point out, that this was a nonpartisan, if you, will result. Democrats and republicans alike, believe in protecting the one person, one vote, simple majority rule. So despite what polls, and across the nation may say as it relates to republican versus democrat, when it came to this issue, is she won, we were able to bring both democrats and republicans together, and that demonstrates what happens when the people come together, the votes are successful in the country succeeds. And we should know that abortion law that you noted there is on hold right now. Being reviewed by your supreme court. Thank you for joining us on Breaking News tonight. Thank you for having me. We will have more on what this vote means on a National Level when we return. Not just whats happening in ohio. But what are the ramifications for the nationwide. Plus, major leadership shake up in the Desantis Campaign. As the president ial hopeful is struggling to catch up to the trump train. We never just see the numbers. We see the people. Marcus detroit, its just changed so much. You can see what it once was. And then, i think about what it can be. As an entrepreneur, its about how i can give them the tools to empower themselves if we can just all do something small, All The Small Things will start to amount to something big. Thats why were here to help make it happen. Our ears connect us to the moments that matter. Give them the nutrients they need with lipo. 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Call 1800directv Breaking News tonight, cnn has projected that ohio voters have rejected an extraordinary attempt by the republican supermajority in that state, that would make it harder to change the states constitution. This was an effort to change the rules, in a rare august, Special Election, that wouldve happened before a vote that is going to happen this november, on protecting Abortion Rights. A measure that is going to be on the ballot then. Tonight, this was the only measure that voters in ohio were voting on. Republicans in the state have even admitted that it was about abortion. Ohio Secretary Of State has. For more on the breaking results that we are getting in, lets bring in jamal simmons, former communication director to kamala harris. And christian salted anderson, lets look at these numbers. There were questions of what this was going to look like. We got the numbers and pretty quickly. And pretty overwhelmingly. These voters have rejected this. This is a rake up call to republicans on two fronts. The first is that the problems politically that they are facing in a postroe world, have not gone away, they have still not as a party figured out a message on abortion. When you ask democrats, whats your opposition on abortion. They say it is between woman and a doctor, and they rarely get pushed on what does that mean. Or any questions. But for republicans, theyre still getting bogged down. Is it 15, weeks is it six, weeks is in a, weeks one of the exceptions . Is it federal, is it state . No coherent answer. The second thing that republicans need to wake up to, is the patterns of who turns out in very low turnout elections have changed. The Democratic Coalition has really been fired up by this issue and they are turning out in elections that previously it was much harder for the Democratic Party to turn peter out in. Meanwhile, republicans, their coalition now consists of a lot more voters, but harder to track out to the polls when donald trump is not on the ballot. Thats a big challenge. Also fascinating to see what the democratic breakdown is, of who voted here, and how this failed. And who was responsible for that. When you heard from mike gonidakis, he was president of the ohio right to life group, he wanted it to pass, because he wanted it higher come november, when voters are going to be voting on it enshrining voter rights. But hes not the only one on it. Do you think its about abortion . What are you reading on this . Its about abortion. But abortion also as the linchpin to an america that he doesnt particularly want. Heres the problem, republicans are trying to go around the country and change the rules of the game as. They see themselves losing the cultural arguments, naturally. We have seen north carolina, take away party from the governor. In the same thing and wisconsin, when theres a democratic governor elected. So were seeing this trend happen around the country of changing the rules in the middle of the game. People do not like, that americans are pretty much raised that when you know the rules, you play by the rules, you win or you lose. And when you take a look at what is happening in abortion, there is an army out there. And its not just democrats. What we found, when i was in the white house last year, is we knew that there was a lot of women, many of them probably voted for republicans, who would support a Democratic Initiative to keep abortion legal. We saw it in kansas, jobs happen in june, kansas vote in august. We saw republicans stand up and say that they wanted to keep abortion legal. And then we saw it again in michigan, in 2022 during the midterms. Im glad you brought that up. Because we were looking at this map earlier, because, some people may see this and say, oh well it is just ohio. This is it relevant to me. But obviously, it has national implications. Look at what we did see. Just through the states that rejected measures to restrict Abortion Rights. Kansas as you mentioned, kentucky, montana. Protecting the right to abortion, california, vermont, michigan. With this be on the Ballot Com November . Do you think republicans in ohio, and people like gonidakis, are worried that this means that it could pass . And very in mind that ohio is no longer thout as a pure cut swing state. When i first worked in politics, i thought i was doing focus groups in columbus, ohio every week. Because that was a swing part of the swing state. And now, ohio boats like texas in a National Level. Its gonna be really interesting next november when you have brown on the ballot. Republicans think that maybe they can pick up a senate seat there. Theres gonna be a ton of money spent on that state. But republicans, i, think now need to wake up. You cant just take for granted that even the states that have moved quite read during the trump era, would necessarily always vote with you on every issue. Cnns own polling, that just came out today, about a third of republican responded said that they disagreed that the supreme courts decision to overturn roe. The politics of the issue are much more complicated than red and blue. And in the states that the republican governor supported, he wanted us to pass, he voted for this i believe. I was gonna say, kansas, where the vote happened there. Donald trump won cancers 60 6 41. If youre losing an Abortion Vote in kansas, and losing again in ohio, which looked like it may be closer to 58 . These are not small office. Its not just a turnout campaign. This is really about people saying not today, not on my watch. We are not having this. But if you are in the numbers game, which all politicians are, they are looking at what happened in kansas, they are looking at what happened in montana, and california, and vermont, and michigan, tonight in ohio. At what point does that break through to them that republicans does not play an election that they think it does . From my perspective, the message should have been received the day after the 2022 midterms. But it seems as though republicans, i am hopeful, well take a lesson from this and say, we need to find either a more coherent message on the issue of abortion itself, that is not so alienating to young women. That is not so alienating to the swing voters, who are likely with us. Even on some cultural issues. That there has got to be a rethinking of the strategy period. Ill tell you one place that is not gonna help, its not happening in the merits of slavery. Desantis talking about that, putting that into the florida Education Initiative . This is not the kind of Conversation Americans want to have. There is some of the issues, that we as a country, have decided we know the answer to these issues. We can argue about, a little bit more of this, a little bit more of that. But we know the answer to these issues. Why are republicans trying to open these up, as they began to take the majorities in some of these key states . Im curious. What do you think its gonna happen in arizona, because today and Abortion Rights Group there, launch this bed to enshrine Abortion Rights there. Its a fourstep essentially, and putting up a ballot. It is not there yet. Does that help to mobilize democrats in arizona who may be, next november, who would not be as enthusiastic as voting in President Biden reaction effort. Is this something that drives them to the polls . It drives them to the polls, but i would say, again, i think its the litany of all the things that are coming together. The affirmative action vote, i think helps with African American voters. And some liberal rights. Again, getting them more engaged, and paying attention to the Abortion Vote. It crosses party lines because its not just an ideological, a partisan issue, it is an ideological issue. So the main thing, the Republican Party may not be on the side of the Big Multi Cultural America that we all thought we were on the path to having. Its really on the side of a kind of america, maybe its the 1950s, maybe its 18 90s, we do not know. But its not the america that we are looking for. Jamal simmons, kristian soltis anderson, thank you both for being here on the Breaking News. In the president ial race, as we were just mentioning. There was a sign of trouble for ron desantis. Can his campaign survive another shakeup. We will find out, because another shakeup just happened your record label is taking off. But so is your sound engineer. You need to hire. I need indeed. Indeed you do. 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For the third time in less than a month, the governor of florida announced another staff changes team. Removing his Campaign Manager, and instead replacing her with a loyalist. In mid july, he fired about a dozen staffers, and then two weeks later, clean house again, amid concerns about how much money his campaign was spending. Desantis has been struggling financially, and unable to show growth when it comes to polls, and whether or not he is able to compete with the republican front runner, former president donald trump. Mark caputo is a National Political reporter for the messenger, he broke the story today. Mark, thanks for joining me tonight. Obviously, firing a Campaign Manager is never a good sign for any campaign, no matter what election you are running. What is going on here with the Desantis Campaign . Well, the question is whether third time is a charm. And, youve just seen this sort of, slow motion refusal to rip the bandaid off quickly, and fess up, acknowledge the problems that he had. His financial arrangements. The assumptions they made in building a budget, hiring staff, to fund raising. And also to his media strategy. Now you have seen all of those things change, and the final thing that changed here was, over a period of time, you heard a number of donors, a number of supporters, a number of advisers to desantis, say look, you really have to replace them Campaign Manager. Not all of this should fall on Campaign Manager, outgoing Campaign Manager generic shoulders. But the idea that they own the campaign. But the problem with being a Campaign Manager, is when things go badly with the campaign, and things look make managed, you usually get blamed here. The Chief Of Staff, in the official office, last week came in. Was tasked by desantis to say, hey, find out what is going on. See what problems there are, and whether you can fix them. He did, that review the budget, he reviewed the financials. He looked at the strategic plan, and he also talked to staffers. And when he came back to desantis, desantis then turned him and said, hey, why dont you run it. And it was difficult for his Chief Of Staff to say no. As you have pointed out, he is a loyalist for ron desantis. So if the governor asked him to do something, he is going to do it. I like you brought up that money there, so another thing that obviously stood out when you look at the Desantis Campaign is out of that nine point 2 million that they raised in to july, the campaign mistakenly reported on 2. 6 million of it. Which can be used in the republican primary. It can only be used if he makes it to the general election. What is Something Like that say about how the campaign is being run when it comes to what donors are concerned about . Which is how they are spending money . That is a good question, its one of those mysteries. From what i was able to tease out, and what i reported today in the messenger, is that only in the final weeks of the quarter that ended july 1st, or ended at the end of june, was that they had miscalculated how much money was coming in. And one of the reasons that they did that, is they were banking what they thought were pledges that were gonna come in, that never came. Now pledges are kind of like a mary poppins term, it applies promises, its easily made a broken, now desantis is going back to some of those people and saying hey look, pledging stuff in the past, they made some of the changes, they really need the money. Why dont you give it to us. Being told that the money is coming in, we heard that the money was coming in before, that the ship was being raided, it hasnt been quite true. But maybe it is a new day in tallahassee . We will find out. You have covered desantis for a long time, obviously, politics in florida generally. Are you surprised to see how his president ial campaign is struggling to translate. The success that he had in florida, which is obvious, but translating that and National Level . Yes and no. Desantis is a very smart individual. He compressor a lot of information completely, he can have an argument, he can deal with multiple inputs, and given take with the best of them. But the problem that desantis had was that he is a victim of his own success. He won florida by almost 20 Percentage Points for his reelection. And became such a powerful governor, and created such a system around him, where, his word was basically law. You had a Republican Legislature that obeyed his every whim. And they essentially bend to his well. So as a result, he never really created a structure where he was ever challenged, he hates the news media, especially the National News media. He did not really have to deal with them. So, he felt he could create his own reality it appears, and only launched his campaign and stubbornly refused to change his campaign, by only talking to conservative media. And not engaging that given take with a broad, or national media. Which is still a bread and butter of the nation finding out who you are. That doesnt mean, for republican, that he has to agree with everything and he hates the middle in his words are gonna say. But it does mean that his supporters, and people who are potential supporters, want to see him they got his feet, argue back, and mountain argument. He wasnt doing that. Hes doing that now, as i said a minute ago, were gonna see if it works. There is a debate right now, whether its too late, or whether there is still time. I think its probably the late side of early . There could still be time, but the fact of the matter is, outside of desantis having his own problems, the biggest problem that ron desantis has, the same problem that all they have in the primary. Is donald trump. He has a very high floor. And he is able to get to 40 or 50 . If you get a 50 , obviously he went. But even at 40 , if you have a multiple candidate primary, it is really hard to pick a guy like that. And desantis, and everyone else is finding that out. As you said, well see if the third time is the charm. Mark caputo, great reporting, thank you. Thank you. A u. S. Officer who worked in the Trump Administration said quote, his blood ran cold, when he read these two parts of the Special Counsel indictment. Join me next to explain why he believes the military couldve been forced to make a choice between defying orders, and turning your weapons on supporters. Manager well, you must earn commissions on trades. 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Com mmm yeah what did i say . tonight, a former army officer who was a top aide to john kelly when he ran the department of homeland security, says, and im quoting him now, that his blood ran cold, when he read to parts of th latest trump indictment. In his speech for the spatch, titled an unthinkable choice Kevin Carroll says that if trump and his Co Conspirator were successful with a set out to d it would have put the military in an impossible position. Either defy their orders, return their weapons tonight, kevin carol is joining me. He is a former dear cia officer, and former counsel to john kelly at the department of homeland security. As we noted there. Thanks so much kevin for being there. I mean that quote really stood out to me, you said your blood ran cold when you read this indictment, why . Kaitlan, it was a terrible prospect. Its just 2 paragraphs in the lengthy indictment, but its clear that john easton, who was the academic mind behind this idea to have Vice President pence negate the votes, and the assistant Attorney General jeff clark, who President Trump planned to name as Attorney General. Knew that riots would result if Vice President pence did what they suggested. And they anticipated that the Insurrection Act would be invoked by the president , and that violence would and that federal Armed Forces National guardsmen would have to put down protests in American Cities with force yeah i mean, it sounds like youre saying when youre referring to jeffrey clark, obviously he talked about invoking the insurrection. Act john east and had this kind of callous response when he was warned about his actions potentially causing riots in the streets, it basically sounds youre worried that the outcome could have been a lot worse than it even was in that period. The outcome would have been terrible. However the matter was resolved. Senior Military Officials would have been put in positions of having to decide, do we disobeyed a lawful order from the president of the United States, because the Insurrection Action act does give the president quite a bit of latitude to use force to keep the federal law in operation out in the states. Or, would they, for a bad purpose to, try to keep someone in the white house who had lost the election, use force on american citizens. And its inevitable, in this day and age, that if theres a really large protests, theres going to be some vandal, assist going to be some leaders, theres going to be some arsonists. So its certain that there would have been a confrontation between Young American troops, who probably wouldnt have had much training in civil unrests, an american citizens. And tragedy would have resulted in a way that wouldve changed our country. Again, either through the military disobeying a president ial order, or flu shedding innocent blood. And you are essentially saying that the harm of what could have happened, the potential outcomes here, that that should be taken into account for his sentencing. Of course, thats if he is convicted, we dont know where this trial is going to go yet or if its even going to happen potentially. But it sounds like you think he should go to jail. Yes, if he is convicted. Its a fraud in a conspiracy case. And part of the conspiracy here was to miss use the United States military, against american citizens, to try to keep someone in office who had lost the election. And when the government takes its position on sentencing, and when the judge, if there is a conviction decides what the sentence should be, i think they have to look at the fact that if this plan had gone forward, you would have had terrible harm to the United States military as an institution, to our republic as a democracy in which the military is supposed to be and has been subservient to civilian control, and to the Young Service members and young protesters who would have tragically been at the sharp end of this. Safe to say that you would never serve in another trump . Thats a very very safe prediction caitlin. Kevin carroll, thank you for joining us on this dispatch tonight. Thank you. A new hearing day, speaking of trumps indictment there, has just been set after a back and forth over the 2 teams, over the handling of evidence in the case and what said about what the judge still needs to decide as trump is on the campaign trail, lashing out against the Special Counsel, prosecutors in georgia and, everyone in between, next. You can astepro and go i need it cool at night. You trying to ice me out of the bed . Baby, only on game nights. You know you are retired right . Am i . Ya save 50 on the sleep Number Limited Edition smart bed. Plus, 36 month financing on select smart beds. Shop now only at sleep number. How do we decide what hotel to book . [ding] aargh fear not, i got you who are you . Im your fairy hotel mother. What is happening . Let me help you pick a hotel you feel good about. Choice hotels is a family of brands, with a hotel for every type of stay. [whoosh] [ding] like a comfort with the kiddos. 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Because im sitting in a courtroom on because [applause] his Attorney General charged me with something. [applause] terrible. With me to discuss all of this is cnn senior legal analyst and former assistant u. S. Attorney in the Southern District of new york elie honig. Elie we, wont make you weigh in on those comments there. But what do you make of this decision, like what do you read into judge saying no im not going to give you until next monday under tuesday. Its a completely fair decision. Prosecutors wanted to go in asap, trumps team wanted till next. Week and they said lets do it friday and this is a mini skirmish thats really gonna foreshadow much bigger because you can see the dynamic. Trumps team wants to push off as far as possible, and prosecutors want to pull as quick as possible. And the judge gonna have to find a middleground. But this is pretty, i was talking to a source and trump world earlier. And i was saying, this actually pretty standard early on into heres what you can and cannot say publicly about what we are. Sharing with you, about evidence in the case. Maybe it could be transcripts of witnesses before the grand jury, it could be a lot of information. A really important distinction. The judge is not deciding to shut donald trump up entirely. It may get to that point if he keeps talking. All the judges saying you cant take the evidence in this case, the discovery, the grand jury transcripts, and glass it over truth social. And the judge is going to decide what the parameters are. That but yeah, thats a really important distinction here. And the federal grand jury that was investigating here, as they headed down the indictment last, week they met again today. I mean clearly, they are still investigating, because there are six unindicted coconspirators, what is this. Theres got to be that, i mean prosecute is always love to say the investigation is ongoing. Its clear that mean something, here its not just boiler plate. But look, there are six people named as coconspirators. Prosecutors dont do that lightly. When you call someone a coconspirator, what you are saying is we believe this person was part of the crime and in on it. And so, there is a continuing investigation, all indications, including paula reids reporting that bernie kerik was in, theyre being questioned about Rudy Giuliani, to tell me that their next focus on those six coconspirators. A big question by the way, is if they are going to indict them, but they add them to the trump indictment, or do them separately . If they added to the trump indictment, thats going to be a big problem for timing. Yet, we will see what that looks like. But also today, trump was railing against the district county, that is to be turning in fulton county, fani willis. I mean, he was going after her, in terms that were not going to play what he said about her. Today, but he was going after her. But we have learned from sara murray just now, that she is expected to present her case to the grand jury starting next week. Thats going to take about four already eight hours, we believe. I mean, how soon do you think we could see the trump facing another indictment . Look, it looks clear it could be very soon, could be next week. When you are at this phase, you are really at an endgame. And remember, fani willis is already put all of our evidence into the special grand jury, that wrapped up a couple of months ago. She can just go into this grand jury now, and summarize. I do have to say, because i just feel obligated every time trump goes on one of these france, dont play it, dont give it air. But, what he says here is disgraceful, its grotesque, its dangerous, im out of adjectives, but i do think its really important to call it out every time he attacks our judicial system, our prosecutors, or are judges. Yeah, hes not just attacking fani willis, hes saying she is politically motivated what she is doing here. But he also says that as attacking the judge, his attorneys are going to be before on friday. Obviously, he goes after jack smith essentially every day at breakfast. I mean, what is it like when trumps attorneys are in the room, when judge chutkan on friday, trying to have this discussion . Heres the thing, you do have a right as a criminal defendant, to criticize your judge, your prosecutor. Ive been criticized in public but people ive prosecuted. Thats fine, its a First Amendment right. But, at a certain point, when you cross a line into threats, and you potentially tempering with witnesses, or your jury pool. Remember, everyone is watching this, as part of the jury pool, then its up to the prosecutors. I mean, normal citizens cant go to a judge and say you need to put a stop to this. Only prosecutors can do that, or the judge can do it herself. But gosh, i cant even imagine how difficult it is to try to be the lawyer for this client. The other thing thats not for me today, when he was in New Hampshire, is he said this. This is a quote he said. There was never a second of any day, that i didnt believe that it was a rigged election. Ive never heard him say Something Like that before. Obviously, we have listened to a lot of his speeches. But we looked at the indictment. Jack smith opens the indictment by saying, trump knew that he had lost, at least 30 times in, it he references trump quote, knowingly false claims. Do you think this is a Defense Tactic that we are seeing from trump . 100 , thats gonna be a crucial battleground in this case. By the way, i think this important piece of evidence in endowment, one of them, is when donald trump is talking about claims that Sydney Powell has made about election fraud, and donald trump says, those claims are, and i quote, crazy. That would be a key battleground for this case. A lot of key battlegrounds that we have here lately we have you, elie honig, to help break it down. Thanks. Well speaking of coconspirators, one of them, Trump Coconspirator number one, Rudy Giuliani, has now been accused of making excuses like, the dog ate my homework, to avoid complying with a lawsuit about election lies. More on that excuse, next. Come on. Work for dad here. Now, you can find the game easy. My barbecue is saved get in the redzone with sports pack. Call 1800directv my barbecue is ruined. Want your clothes to smell freshly washed all day without heavy perfumes . Try downy light inwash freshness boosters. It has longlasting light scent, no heavy perfumes, and no dyes. Finally, a light scent that lasts all day. Downy light [ding] ahh did somebody say which hotel . im great at this. [ding] dance to your faves in the spalike bathroom [ ] [ding] or enjoy local craft beers, with breathtaking views at the cambria. Book direct at choicehotels. Com. 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Smartmatic, the Voting Technology company that is suing fox news for lies about the 2020 election, is now putting Rudy Giuliani on blast, for allegedly making up stories they say, to avoid turning over documents. And a new court filing, smartmatic says, quote, the dog ate my homework. Since the dawn of time, people have made up excuses to avoid doing things they do not want to do. This is exactly what giuliani has done here. We should note, cnn has reached out to giulianis attorney for comment, we have not yet heard back. Thank you so much for joining me tonight, cnn prime time with laura coates starts right. Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us here in the United States and all around the d,